Change of use for CH16

Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

Hi Mike. I spent 25 years in the MN half deepsea & half doing rigshifts and rig supply work. Even when I was working a rig on working channels, I always kept another set on 16 and the 'big set' on 2182. Channel 16 always worked wherever you were in the world - it was low tech and easy to understand. The only problems were when you got a couple of fishermen chatting and swearing on 16 instead of going to a working channel, or a surfeit of yachties doing bl**dy radio checks. The system wasn't broke, it just needed a bit more education of certain groups. This DSC seems to be a real mess. I dare say it might get sorted eventually, but for years it is going to be a cause of great confusion, huge numbers of mistakes and, I dare say, unnecessary loss of life through people not knowing how to operate it in a crisis. Going on a course is all very well, but if something is complicated it'll throw a spanner if it can. Personally I haven't gone DSC and would prefer not to. Sure, lots of sailors like toys to play with on their boats, but when it comes to life or death scenarios I'm a great believer in the KISS principle. There you go, rant over. Sorry!

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

First I'll register my disbelief that someone who clearly holds a proper radio operators certificate (ie PMG, GOC, ROC, LRC) and therefore must understand the point of the service outside of Pleasure Boating would in all seriousness make these points. If i'm rising to the bait then I am the proverbial big red snapper

Second, I'll remind you that the DISTRESS alerting system centres around a "red Button" that is uncovered and held down for between 3 and 5 seconds to put out a MAYDAY. If the radio is plugged into a GPS and properly licensed this action will result in every radio set within range having on its screen the name and position of the stricken vessel within a couple of seconds.

The argument about possible loss of life is not valid as the DISTRESS alerting function is (let's be honest) idiot proof, even with MF as the button tunes the set so no need to fiddle for a freq before PTT. Before anyone starts off about false alerts, let's remember that something like 90% of the much reported GMDSS false alerts are from EPIRBs and not DSC radio sets and that the total alert figure is something like 30 activations a year.

There's my little rant over, I am so glad I'm going paintballing tomorrow!!

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
 
Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

Mike,

I agree that distress is simple and handled outside of the main debate going on here, but to treat maritime radio as something that is structured for only commercial users is in my opinion utter madness... I sometimes think that authorities think they are there to stop the great unwashed public from being too troublesome.....and it infuriates me when authority treat things like this as a privilege rather than a right..... its not.... its our tax that pays for the authorities as well as the commercial users tax.

To ignore the needs of pleasure users is a bit like saying that computers were built originally for business use, so maybe we should all be banned from using them at home....

This whole saga is reminiscent of the early days of rail where many companies emerged all using different rail gauges....and gosh that caused the whole thing to be put back 20 years...

To say that it is an international issue, and can't be resolved by government is a cop out.... perhaps we could all use nasty antifouling again as its an international issue, or maybe we could all ignore Colregs as they are an international issue... my point being, you can't pick and choose which areas are for commercial only and which aren't...

On a positive note... This no doubt will sort itself out through good old fashioned 'voting with feet' when everyone starts using a chosen channel for communicating... it'll soon settle down, and it would be interesting to see someone prosecuted for misuse... I can see the lawyers circling now with their human rights folders [grin]

Re-reading this post before submitting, it is quite harshly worded...please take it as a brain dump... I don't want to offend anyone, I just think that we need to make our voices heard sometimes

(and now I feel like a radical lefty student from the 70's.....sorry!)

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

Well I'm NOT gonna rise to the bait. I'm just gonna kick the s**t out of my computer!

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

Perhaps unusually I am on Mike's side on this one /forums/images/icons/frown.gif. Maritime radio is for the international community and is (and in my view has to be) mainly for those who are obliged by law to use it ie most commercial vessels. Commercial vessels are international wanderers, and like in aviation, there has to be some reasonably common structure around the world too. Comparisons can be made with Air Traffic Management where private aircraft, if they opt to use it, do so under the rules which are international and oriented to those who are required by law to use it ie the commercial aircraft.

Voluntarily equipped vessels should be encouraged to fit and use VHF but it will always have to be as a secondary partner. It is not a chit chat service for recreational boaters.

A very big thing I notice about what is being said about the UK is that VHF seems to be regarded there as a free (virtually) telphone service by the recreational community. I get the impression that in the UK people are gabbing on the VHF all the time. For example, why some think that a "telephone" type book of other boats' MMSI's is needed I cannot understand - firstly it would be enormous, and secondly it is not the purpose of VHF to be used in a telephone type way. Why do you need to individual call another vessel?

So perhaps part of the problem in UK is that voluntarily equipped pleasure vessels think too much of VHF as if it were a cheap telephone service rather than its correct purpose which is for strict operational purposes. An example of that strictness is that I am aware of the following incident in one jurisdiction. A ship was berthed in the port and it had a fire on board. They used VHF to call for assistance. The ship was reprimanded by the marine authorities as there was a telephone available for use and that is what should have been used, fire or no fire.

Once all the gabbing goes away between pleasure boats, and ports, marina's, etc are called on their own channels, instead of Ch16, there is little other use of Ch16 for calling left apart from securite and safety (if a Sea Area A1 that will go too). That is regardless of how big the recreational fleet is.

Perhaps a big advantage of DSC is that it may force the recreational community away from casual use of VHF.

John
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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

MarkV
I don't think HMCG and the RNLI would thank you for that suggestion. Ch 0 is where they go to get some peace and quiet and away from other traffic whilst dealing with a shout. Apart from that you need very special permission to have zero on your set!

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other

Why?

The radio spectrum is a limited resource that needs to be shared by all users. No one group has a monopoly on its use.

Next time you are on yout boat just do a quick scan of all the channels on your VHF and see how many are being used at any one time. Do you really think that out of all the spectrum there is not space for leisure users to use it as a right?

I know people keep telling me how wonderful DSC is - but of all the marine VHF sets currently registered in UK what proportion do you think are DSC capable? I'm sure Mike can tell us but I would guess that it is no more than 25% and possibily as low as 10%.

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

Sorry John but I can think of a number of reasons why one boat may wish to call another - and many of them would I believe reasonably contribute to either avoiding the need to call on the emergency services (no not the AA!). However I do agree that 'chatting' is not within this and I have in mind short, information based, calls around passage plans and progress.
DSC (red button) should be a fantastic step forward for all, the retention of A designated calling channel, ie not for any other communication, seems however to remain a requirement to avoid total chaos on 8, 10, 72 and/or 77 (or whatever). It has been very noticable that the CG are staying on 16 for casualty working much more this year than ever before when a switch to 67 or 73 was often made. Given the ridiculous 'radio check' situation in the solent this probably doesn't actually result in much change for most!
In relation to MSI numbers, I thought there was an MMSI database that was available for all to access? I am not suggesting that is a suitable telephone directory but thought it existed.
Finally I would suggest that DSC will in fact increase the volume of people chatting over the VHF airwaves - many more will feel confident that they can get through to the people they wish to invite for lunch than is the case currently!

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif
 
Re: So how will people who do not know each other

Are you saying maritime VHF shoud be a free "telephone" service. It is actually a safety and operations service, and as I say pleasure boats should be encouraged to take part. I am not saying others should not have access to the radio spectrum either, but I will infer that other parts of the radio spectrum may be more appropriate for much pleasure boat communications eg cb/prs.

However, I actually see little need for pleasure boats to talk to each other, other than very occasionally, using the VHF maritime service and wonder why the complaints of congestion in the Solent, for example (and please no one humour themselves by saying it is different there to NZ - I work internationally). In the end, if radio congestion is a problem, and the traffic is not strictly operational or safety then telephone or PRS/citizen bands are the options that should be used by pleasure boats (my experience is that commercial vessels use very little of the bandwidth for anything other than pure operational reasons and I regularly hear them change to other services when they stray from operational traffic). In the end, I would put asking for marina berths, ferry rides into pubs/restaurants, arranging a barbecue on the beach, etc into the telphone and cb class if congestion is a problem - they are hardly important operational purposes and not safety for sure.

We are in the situation here where there is not alot of pressure on the maritime vhf spectrum. Because of that duplex channels are given over to trusts to operate for repeators which anyone can subscribe to (including small commercial). You might be surprised by the number of times in that pressureless environment stations using the repeators actually elect to go to cellular phone when they stray from operational matters to keep the repeator free for others.

I am not saying pleasure vessels should not have access to the maritime VHF spectrum, but I am saying that they cannot expect that access to be in any manner other than the purpose to which that spectrum is given.

John

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

<<<I can think of a number of reasons why one boat may wish to call another >>>

So can I but the only ones oriented to the purpose of the maritime radio service of being operational and safety, I can think of are ones which would hardly ever be used. If there are lots of reasons for pleasure vessels to be using CH16, or any other calling channel designated to substitute for that after the advance of DSC, and which do not fall into the more appropriate to use telephone/cb/prs services I would be interested to hear of them.

What are all the important purposes that pleasure vessels need to put maritime VHF to on a regular basis?

John

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

an example from the last 12 months -
engine cut out in benign conditions crossing Poole Bay one afternoon after the major Forum meet at Mercury on the Hamble. 3 other craft known to be 'going my way' so called up one on 16, got another responding. We had tools etc on board and set about resolving (filters) whilst he made his way over to us in any event. Got going and ran the 10 miles back into Poole in company. The alternative would havce been to 'bother' the CG with a pan pan or call direct, they would probably have contacted Poole ILB "just in case" etc etc when it was all covered with a call to other known vessels - but not known enough to have all the MSI numbers in due course!
In another instance a call (in this case on 77 as previously agreed) to a boat that was delayed in making a rendevous on the coast. No mobile signals in that area. Quickly established on the VHF they were OK and got the full story of their woes over lunch later.
What I am, probably badly, trying to highlight is that the alternative to a recognised calling channel will probably be a very significant increase in teh use of the CG as a relay or co ordination for those minor issues that can be resolved 'between boaters' with out recourse to the CG or RNLI.
In the above I am in no way suggesting that you shouldn't keep the CG informed if a situation could go sour quickly of course.
I hope this helps explain what I am trying to get over.

Duncan

<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif
 
Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

I think we are saying the same thing Duncan, those are operational and safety examples - and there is no issue with those for the VHF service. But it would seem that if Channel 16 (and others) are congested by pleasure vessels, then either everyone in UK breaks down or needs to give assistance to others many times a year or else many are chatting about things better placed on other communications services, not on Maritime VHF.

John

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

I am glad we have agreed what we can agree upon! I didn't think there was any difference on this but but, always one eh?, the post here is highlighting that (1) C16 will move/has moved from a calling channel, and (2) there won't be any designated calling channel in future.
(2) will result in individuals making their own arrangements to (mis) use a comunication channel such as 77 or 72 currently but wiht a mix of calling and comunicating it will probably all breakdown. But most importantly there won't be a single accepted channel for people to listen out on for those who might be making calls such as those I list above. Even if everyone on here, for example, agreed on 77 it will be full of misusers actually in chat mode and unavaible as a calling channel.
Proposal would be to at least designate, say, 08 as calling maybe?



<hr width=100% size=1>madesco madidum ..../forums/images/icons/smile.gif
 
Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

Confusion seems to have taken control of this thread ? I recently called Forth Coast Guard on ch16 from Granton I was going to ask for a weather forcast and tell them my sailing plans, was this correct procedure or not ? My broadcast was not heard so no use asking for a radio check before putting to sea.SWMBO made a phone call to CG. and got the forcast and a ticking of for not using ch16.

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

Why would you want to call the Coastguard for a weather report - a special broadcast especially for you? Are there not regular transmissions of weather in UK? Were you late out of bed to hear the broadcast, could you have not gotten it off the internet? Do you not have marine weather dial up voice and fax services from weather providers in the UK? Was the request important to safety or were you just trying to see if it was a nice day for a sail.

To make a request for weather from the service primarily responsible for safety watch is to me, unless one was caught in a situation of concern at sea because of severely deteriorating conditions, an indication of improper use of maritime VHF and bad seamanship? Perhaps that is what the Coastguard were getting at.

You mention sailing plans - how far were you going. Around the bay on a sunny day or were you doing a long coastal or less distant but in bad conditions. If the former, do you not think you were congesting the VHF service for no real purpose? If so could you not have just told someone else your intentions? Do you not have 5 minute intentions sheets you can fill out and leave with the marina manager, or friend, next door berth holder, or whatever (we have our own which we print off and leave with the marina manager and one of our EPIRB contact names if venturing away for more than a day sail)?

I am not trying to be provocative, but it could seem as if the service is expected to be a nanny. There is not enough spectrum to nanny people and it is not the purpose of the maritime radio service to do so.

John

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Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

I would urge caution in some of your statements if you are thinking about a campaign. For example:

1) It is NOT Pleasure Boaters tax who pay for the Coastguard and what it does it is ALL UK Citizens' tax, the vast majority of whom do not have boats and probably never will. Just imagine the campaign mounted by the entire country to make Pleasure Boaters pay direct!!

2) No one ignores the needs of Pleasure Users that's why we can fit the radios and take part, however a large number of Pleasure Boaters ignore the rules of the system which are there to ensure it works in the way it is supposed to for everyone who may need it.

I don't quite get your point about the international situation as you have highlighted further instances where we join in with other countries and apply the same rules, haven't you.

Mike

<hr width=100% size=1>Team Executive,
Maritime & Aeronautical Team, Ofcom
 
Re: So how will people who do not know each other communicate?

So, if there is to be no general calling channel ('cos Nanny says not?) perhaps we should all use Children's Band or PMRs.

Of course, we are advised not to do so as nobody monitors them for safety issues in exactly the way that mobiles are not recommended because you can't talk to rescue services.

Does anybody use anything but the VHF or a mobile to talk to other boats? If mobile, you know their phone no so can get the MMSI and use DSC...

I checked through all my VHF course notes last night and they specifically stated "call on Ch 16 if MMSI not known and treat as if neither party has a DSC set".

<hr width=100% size=1>Two beers please, my friend is paying.
 
Re: So how will people who do not know each other

No - I am saying that the radio frequency is a limited Global resource that all need to share.

I think your interpretation of the purpose of the Marine spectrum is very limited. Just how much operational and safety need is there for intership communications requiring the intership channels - I would suggest very little. If you believe that everywhere in the world commercial vessels only use VHF for safety and essential operational purposes then I would suggest that you have not had much experience and are being a bit naive!

Times change and you admit that there is not a lot of pressure on the marine VHF spectrum (apart from Channel 16!) so why should you insist that this underused resource should be kept reserved for the exclusive use of one section of the marine fraternity?



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Re: So how will people who do not know each other

<<<so why should you insist that this underused resource should be kept reserved for the exclusive use of one section of the marine fraternity>>>

I suggest you read my posts; I did not say anything about it being reserved for anyone. In fact I have said that voluntary vessels should be encouraged to be fitted with VHF.

Not sure what you are getting at if you think I am inferring that "the radio frequency (spectrum?)" is not "a limited Global resource that all need to share". Apart from the equipping of voluntary vessels with VHF I have mentioned use being made of cellphones, CB, PRS all of which are means of giving everyone access to the radio spectrum.

Not sure you actually know what you are talking about so I will call it quits - you win.

John

<hr width=100% size=1><P ID="edit"><FONT SIZE=-1>Edited by MainlySteam on 19/07/2004 12:38 (server time).</FONT></P>
 
Re: see what you\'re driving at...

Snowleopard

P4 is how Icom label M2 on all its UK sets.
We are the only country that use them as M and M2
M on our sets appears as 37a
M is the simplex half of 37.

This is how it appears in the ITU lists, that how we label it.
They are both deemed as "private" channels.

(am sure someone will disagree!:o)))))

Regards


<hr width=100% size=1>Jon Brooks
Marine Dealer Manager
Icom UK Ltd.
01227 741741
 
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