Elessar
Well-Known Member
Sadly they don’t do chain. They gave me the number of a sister organisation in Wolverhampton. Who are not doing chain due to maintenance. Ring back in a month.
Chain size help please.
- Thread starter Elessar
- Start date
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Fab thank you.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Thanks. It’s a british boat and mixed chain rode. Why do you think the chain looks big? It’s a 40ft flybridge. What do others use size wise?
Poignard
Well-Known Member
'
Thoughtful advice from Noelex (as usual!).
When I bough my chain from Griff Chains Ltd I had an enlarged link added at each end so that I could use a large shackle at the anchor. It didn't cost much more.
The only snag was that the enlarged links wouldn't pass through the chain pipe and I had to cut one off; so money wasted there due to my lack of foresight! And I can't end-for-end the chain. ?
Praxinoscope
Well-Known Member
Similar to Plum, I have used stainless shackles to the galvanised chain on my mooring for the last 30 years and have had no problems.
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vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
My normal arrangement is shown on this page. Swivel problems and solutions I have used the Kong swivel since 2005 and the Wichard shackle since about the same time but not in the arrangement shown until 2009, when I first came up with the idea of the three chain links between them. The worst that happens is that the galvanising fails on the three links and on the final couple of links of the main chain. The zinc on the three links typically lasts about five years.
Chain is a pretty poor conductor of electricity, so galvanic effects are always going to be minor in a rode. I have no idea why Poignard's chain suffered so badly but I do not believe this to be a normal situation.
Chain is a pretty poor conductor of electricity, so galvanic effects are always going to be minor in a rode. I have no idea why Poignard's chain suffered so badly but I do not believe this to be a normal situation.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
If you had been carrying 70-100m of 10mm chain you might have found the weight excessive - with a mixed rode - not an issue.
However if you use the rope frequently (because you do not have much chain) then every time you retrieve the rode the rope sits in the bottom of the locker, well sodden with sea water. The chain sits on sodden rope and some of the water evaporates and condenses on the chain - its a recipe for corrosion. Ideally you want to separate rope from chain and ensure the locker has good drainage.
I would not use a stainless shackle and agree with Noelex and would use a Crosby G209 A shackle (they meet a Grade B standard in the US). They are possible the best you can buy and are available from Tecni in the UK (and presumably other distributors). If the shackle locks up in the slot in the anchor (not uncommon) the shackle WLL is reduced by 50% if the side load is 90 degrees and reduced by 25% if the side load is 45 degrees. The only shackles of a comparable quality (of the size you would need) are from Campbell in America and as far as I know are not avaliable in the UK. If you buy 'no brand' shackle - don't be surprised if they fail, if they are stainless they might simply distort, if they are gal they may simply break - buy shackles embossed with a reputable brand.
Note if you buy CMP Titan Black Pin shackles then the WLL is imperial short tons not metric tons.
A Crosby Grade B shackle negates any need for an enlarged link as the shackle is far in excess of the strength of chain to which they can comfortably fit. However just because the shackle fits the chain does not mean it will fit the slot in the anchor - and not lock up. Check and check again. I see no reason why Poignard cannot end for end his chain and use a Crosby G209 A shackle.
Jonathan
Poignard
Well-Known Member
'
Neither can I but, I have no need to do it yet.
But when I do need to, I will seriously considerfollowing your helpful advice. For which many thanks.
Elessar
Well-Known Member
Thanks. I usually anchor in shallow water so mostly use only chain.
As for 100m of chain, I would have thought 50 m of heavy chain and 50 m rode would give better performance that 100m of 8mm as, the closer you get to the boat, the less impact the weight has on anchor performance. Would you agree?
thanks for the other info.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
If you look at the pictures that Vyv posted of the 2 chains flogging the seabed it is interesting that the 2 pictures, or the impact of the flogging of the 2 chains is almost identical even though one chain Vyv's is 8mm, on a 35' yacht, and the other 12mm (on a 55' yacht). Despite the 12mm chain being seriously heavy (and the yacht possibly also heavy and slow to veer (effects of inertia) the 2 chains appear to have behaved similarly. To me this underlines that the chain spread sheets of chain size (weight) vs vessel length seem to be about right.
We, personally, have sacrificed chain weight (and the inherent catenary) and replaced it with elasticity of a bridle - as we are using a 30m bridle we are 'in effect' using a mixed rode (but in a different format to a conventional mixed rode). Your rode however needs strong cordage, equivalent in strength to the chain, we don't rely on the cordage so ours is thinner and more elastic.
Summarising - we believe in the mixed rode, so are biased.
And summarising my opening paragraph - if the chain is sized correctly, along the lines of the spread sheets then heavy chain will lift off the seabed as easily as smaller chain (unless you step outside the spreadsheets).
To me, or us, the chain is simply there to join anchor to vessel. It offers little help to the anchor. A good anchor should work by design and should work whether its joined to the vessel with piano wire or 12mm chain.
I have a few caveats. The chain actually reduces the performance of a good, or bad, anchor as the chain resists burial. If the chain resists burial then it hampers the anchor burying. Large shackles, lots of shackles, big swivels, swivels themselves also hamper burying.
Rather than heavy chain I'd advocate a decent anchor, one that has been tested for its holding capacity (of which there are many to choose from), Rocna, Supreme, Ultra, Excel, Kobra, Spade and as small a chain as you can get away with, G70, G80 (like ours), even G40 (if it allows you to down size ( - you still need the strength). Dispense with anything large in the rode, shackles etc - use a sensibly sized Crosby - so choose with size in mind and install a decent snubber.
I'm not condemning a mixed rode - my only caution is that it needs to be beefy, for strength, and beefiness reduces elasticity.
Our mixed rode involves use of a bridle and bridles reduce veering - an advantage you don't get with a conventional mixed rode. Our arrangement also improves scope, the ratio, and as a result of the arrangement reduces the impact of horsing, seesawing in chop - so our mixed rode does 'more' than a conventional mixed rode.
Sadly most of this practice needs to be considered when a vessel is commissioned or when you need a new windlass or chain. No-one is going to dump good 10mm chain for 8mm and few are going to buy a new gypsy - its too costly.
Jonathan
We, personally, have sacrificed chain weight (and the inherent catenary) and replaced it with elasticity of a bridle - as we are using a 30m bridle we are 'in effect' using a mixed rode (but in a different format to a conventional mixed rode). Your rode however needs strong cordage, equivalent in strength to the chain, we don't rely on the cordage so ours is thinner and more elastic.
Summarising - we believe in the mixed rode, so are biased.
And summarising my opening paragraph - if the chain is sized correctly, along the lines of the spread sheets then heavy chain will lift off the seabed as easily as smaller chain (unless you step outside the spreadsheets).
To me, or us, the chain is simply there to join anchor to vessel. It offers little help to the anchor. A good anchor should work by design and should work whether its joined to the vessel with piano wire or 12mm chain.
I have a few caveats. The chain actually reduces the performance of a good, or bad, anchor as the chain resists burial. If the chain resists burial then it hampers the anchor burying. Large shackles, lots of shackles, big swivels, swivels themselves also hamper burying.
Rather than heavy chain I'd advocate a decent anchor, one that has been tested for its holding capacity (of which there are many to choose from), Rocna, Supreme, Ultra, Excel, Kobra, Spade and as small a chain as you can get away with, G70, G80 (like ours), even G40 (if it allows you to down size ( - you still need the strength). Dispense with anything large in the rode, shackles etc - use a sensibly sized Crosby - so choose with size in mind and install a decent snubber.
I'm not condemning a mixed rode - my only caution is that it needs to be beefy, for strength, and beefiness reduces elasticity.
Our mixed rode involves use of a bridle and bridles reduce veering - an advantage you don't get with a conventional mixed rode. Our arrangement also improves scope, the ratio, and as a result of the arrangement reduces the impact of horsing, seesawing in chop - so our mixed rode does 'more' than a conventional mixed rode.
Sadly most of this practice needs to be considered when a vessel is commissioned or when you need a new windlass or chain. No-one is going to dump good 10mm chain for 8mm and few are going to buy a new gypsy - its too costly.
Jonathan
Elessar
Well-Known Member
An interesting take.
I don’t however understand how in can be true.
If you have the same length of chain and the same pulling force, ie windage weight of boat etc the light chain must lift further off the seabed than heavy. How can that not be true?
I have no option but to use a delta by the way due to the boat configuration.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
It doesn't matter what YOU think, Jonathan believes in using light chain, and has made it his life's mission to try to persuade others to his beliefs. ?
Just remember that his boat is a relatively light catamaran, where every extra ounce of weight carried is disastrous. For those of us with proper boats, which can carry some extra tins of beans without sinking, use normal sized anchor chain, and enjoy the benefits of catenary. ???
RichardS
N/A
My boat could probably carry your boat and still not sink ..... it's officially unsinkable.
Richard
Neeves
Well-Known Member
First Norman,
We must have gone to school at a similar time and enjoyed a similar education - as you lived only 40 miles from me. You lived on the coast and did not enjoy the rigours of living inland with snow in the winters. You appear to have completely forgotten your good Scots presbyterian education and not spending money unnecessarily. I'm not sure what size of chain you use but here 10mm chain costs Stg16/m and 12mm chain an eye watering stg20/m. My 6mm chain (with the same strength of 8mm) cost about stg10/m. That's a big difference if you buy 100m (though we only carry 75m) Your rode offers you the same ability to anchor safely as us but we augment our reduced catenary with retired climbing rope, we get for free. So our rode costs Stg750 and yours, that does exactly the same as ours, see below, for 75m of 10mm costs stg1,200. Our chain includes enlarged links + spares a boomerang and was individually tested. We require a smaller windlass, its cheaper, we don't need the same size of battery bank, saving more money and our wiring is smaller. If the chips are down I can retrieve by hand.
We joined the 21str Century and use technologies (product and production process) unavailable in the 20th century - why not join us?
Dashew thinks the same and was, I believe, the original proponent. There is a surprising number of people using lighter but stronger chain - for the reasons outlined and the savings in weight.
6mm chain weighs 0.8kg/m; 8mm weighs 1.4kg/m; 10mm weighs 2.35kg/m and 12mm weighs 3.3kg/m
Carrying 100m of 10mm chain its like having 2 young ladies standing, permenantly, on the bow of your yacht as you sail to windward + 100m of 6mm chain. If you use 12mm chain and carry 100m the difference in weight is about 250kg.
With the right wind we can average 10 knots on over 100 miles.
Dry we would weigh in at under 6t. Using 8mm chain only adds 60kg to a rode swapped from 6mm to 8mm. But its a philosophy - imbued from, successfully, running a racing yacht in RORC bluewater races (we have a cabinet of glass ware).
Elessar,
Catenary is a shock absorber - it can absorb energy, the energy of the moving yacht. An elastic cord absorbs energy - in this case the energy of a moving yacht. It does not matter how the energy is developed - both will react to the simple mass x velocity^2. The yacht is moved by the wind it develops kinetic energy, the catenary straights/the cordage stretches - they both develop potential energy - the wind drops and the energy is released by pulling the yacht forward.
The two photographs provided by Vyv show a 55' yacht using 12mm chain and a 35' yacht using 8mm chain. The windage and weight of the 55' yacht has been calculated to need 12mm chain and the windage of a 35' yacht and its weight has been shown to need 8mm chain. The 2 yachts have a different mass and the two yachts will move at a different speed (velocity). My guess is that the 35' yacht moves faster but has less mass etc. The recommendation result in the 2 yachts behaving similarly because the scaling is 'about right'.
A different example is a bungy jump. If you participate they will ask you your weight and choose a bungy cord appropriate. The heavy jumper and the light jumper will feel the exact same sensation because the elasticity of the lighter cord allows the lighter person to fall as far as the heavier person with the slightly, less elastic cord.
If we could see the catenary of the 2 yachts, the 35' and 55' foot the 2 chain would straighten similarly.
Now - the spread sheets for chain choice are very crude - but have stood the test of time - decades.
All we have done is replace the less effective catenary of our lighter chain with an elastic bridle, or a mixed rode. Our rode, in effect, performs exactly as Norman's does - except part of ours is catenary, part elasticity.
Strangely if you could go back into the mists of time then mixed rodes were common because chain was an expense in austere times and people similarly did not have the spare cash for windlass - retrieval was by hand, or if you were really flush - a manual windlass. Mixed rodes are proven the idea is not new.
Finally - I don't try top persuade anyone to do anything (I'd hate to be a 'salesman' - nothing derogatory but I prefer people to make up their own minds based on technical data provided). I hope I provide an alternative view (looking outside the box in modern parlance) and possibly explore ideas that are interesting and that have been rigorously tested. I don't guess, I don't make things up - I test everything (much to the annoyance of manufacturers when they are found wanting).
Jonathan
We must have gone to school at a similar time and enjoyed a similar education - as you lived only 40 miles from me. You lived on the coast and did not enjoy the rigours of living inland with snow in the winters. You appear to have completely forgotten your good Scots presbyterian education and not spending money unnecessarily. I'm not sure what size of chain you use but here 10mm chain costs Stg16/m and 12mm chain an eye watering stg20/m. My 6mm chain (with the same strength of 8mm) cost about stg10/m. That's a big difference if you buy 100m (though we only carry 75m) Your rode offers you the same ability to anchor safely as us but we augment our reduced catenary with retired climbing rope, we get for free. So our rode costs Stg750 and yours, that does exactly the same as ours, see below, for 75m of 10mm costs stg1,200. Our chain includes enlarged links + spares a boomerang and was individually tested. We require a smaller windlass, its cheaper, we don't need the same size of battery bank, saving more money and our wiring is smaller. If the chips are down I can retrieve by hand.
We joined the 21str Century and use technologies (product and production process) unavailable in the 20th century - why not join us?
Dashew thinks the same and was, I believe, the original proponent. There is a surprising number of people using lighter but stronger chain - for the reasons outlined and the savings in weight.
6mm chain weighs 0.8kg/m; 8mm weighs 1.4kg/m; 10mm weighs 2.35kg/m and 12mm weighs 3.3kg/m
Carrying 100m of 10mm chain its like having 2 young ladies standing, permenantly, on the bow of your yacht as you sail to windward + 100m of 6mm chain. If you use 12mm chain and carry 100m the difference in weight is about 250kg.
With the right wind we can average 10 knots on over 100 miles.
Dry we would weigh in at under 6t. Using 8mm chain only adds 60kg to a rode swapped from 6mm to 8mm. But its a philosophy - imbued from, successfully, running a racing yacht in RORC bluewater races (we have a cabinet of glass ware).
Elessar,
Catenary is a shock absorber - it can absorb energy, the energy of the moving yacht. An elastic cord absorbs energy - in this case the energy of a moving yacht. It does not matter how the energy is developed - both will react to the simple mass x velocity^2. The yacht is moved by the wind it develops kinetic energy, the catenary straights/the cordage stretches - they both develop potential energy - the wind drops and the energy is released by pulling the yacht forward.
The two photographs provided by Vyv show a 55' yacht using 12mm chain and a 35' yacht using 8mm chain. The windage and weight of the 55' yacht has been calculated to need 12mm chain and the windage of a 35' yacht and its weight has been shown to need 8mm chain. The 2 yachts have a different mass and the two yachts will move at a different speed (velocity). My guess is that the 35' yacht moves faster but has less mass etc. The recommendation result in the 2 yachts behaving similarly because the scaling is 'about right'.
A different example is a bungy jump. If you participate they will ask you your weight and choose a bungy cord appropriate. The heavy jumper and the light jumper will feel the exact same sensation because the elasticity of the lighter cord allows the lighter person to fall as far as the heavier person with the slightly, less elastic cord.
If we could see the catenary of the 2 yachts, the 35' and 55' foot the 2 chain would straighten similarly.
Now - the spread sheets for chain choice are very crude - but have stood the test of time - decades.
All we have done is replace the less effective catenary of our lighter chain with an elastic bridle, or a mixed rode. Our rode, in effect, performs exactly as Norman's does - except part of ours is catenary, part elasticity.
Strangely if you could go back into the mists of time then mixed rodes were common because chain was an expense in austere times and people similarly did not have the spare cash for windlass - retrieval was by hand, or if you were really flush - a manual windlass. Mixed rodes are proven the idea is not new.
Finally - I don't try top persuade anyone to do anything (I'd hate to be a 'salesman' - nothing derogatory but I prefer people to make up their own minds based on technical data provided). I hope I provide an alternative view (looking outside the box in modern parlance) and possibly explore ideas that are interesting and that have been rigorously tested. I don't guess, I don't make things up - I test everything (much to the annoyance of manufacturers when they are found wanting).
Jonathan
KREW2
Well-Known Member
Just measure a few good links with a vernier. Preferably ones farthest from the anchor end. Its unlikely it will have reduced by more than 10 %. Do it on the side where it will have had less wear to get a more accurate reading, but avoid doing it over the weld. As has been mentioned you will have to get the right calibrated chain to suit your windlass.
NormanS
Well-Known Member
Hello again Jonathan, you are absolutely correct, my Scottish Presbyterian upbringing means that I don't throw my money around unnecessarily. I certainly wouldn't be buying chain at the prices that you suggest. However, checking on various suppliers, I can buy chain at approximately half the prices that you quote.
I'm not in the market for chain, having recently had my 65m of 10mm regalvanised locally. I can perfectly understand your passion for not carrying unnecessary weight on your catamaran, but our full bodied traditional hull is relatively unaffected by either weight of anchor chain, or nubile bodies adorning the foredeck. (Down boy).
I have always had an all chain rode, and although I know that some use a mixed rode, I'm not sure how I would cope with one. With a gypsy which can cope with rope and then chain, the rope would have to be able to stow itself in the chain locker, which I can't see happening very well, and then the chain is going to pile on top of the rope, which is clearly bad for both rope and chain. All chain, seems so much simpler, as it runs straight out, and on retrieval, stows itself.
When deploying a second anchor, I do have a mixed rode, but I don't expect it to stow itself. It consists of (normally) a Fortress FX23, 5m of heavy chain 7/16" or 11mm, and then 50 m of stretchy climbing rope. My windlass barrel lines up with my second bow roller, so on retrieval, I either pull in by hand, or use the windlass, until I come to the joining knot, by which time, unless in very shallow water, the anchor is already clear of the bottom, and can be heaved up by hand.
These are my preferences, but I fully accept that others will have different ways of doing things. I don't think there is a hard and fast way, but I'm sure that for your boat, your way is best.
I'm not in the market for chain, having recently had my 65m of 10mm regalvanised locally. I can perfectly understand your passion for not carrying unnecessary weight on your catamaran, but our full bodied traditional hull is relatively unaffected by either weight of anchor chain, or nubile bodies adorning the foredeck. (Down boy).
I have always had an all chain rode, and although I know that some use a mixed rode, I'm not sure how I would cope with one. With a gypsy which can cope with rope and then chain, the rope would have to be able to stow itself in the chain locker, which I can't see happening very well, and then the chain is going to pile on top of the rope, which is clearly bad for both rope and chain. All chain, seems so much simpler, as it runs straight out, and on retrieval, stows itself.
When deploying a second anchor, I do have a mixed rode, but I don't expect it to stow itself. It consists of (normally) a Fortress FX23, 5m of heavy chain 7/16" or 11mm, and then 50 m of stretchy climbing rope. My windlass barrel lines up with my second bow roller, so on retrieval, I either pull in by hand, or use the windlass, until I come to the joining knot, by which time, unless in very shallow water, the anchor is already clear of the bottom, and can be heaved up by hand.
These are my preferences, but I fully accept that others will have different ways of doing things. I don't think there is a hard and fast way, but I'm sure that for your boat, your way is best.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
I suspected our prices might be higher than yours but I did quote local manufacturers (of which we still have 2). It is possible to buy unbranded Chinese chain here, much more cheaply (and 8mm is still much cheaper than 10mm or 12mm). Vyv and I have both tested Chinese chain and it has been of good quality - and often near a G40 strength. Look at Vyv's website for detail. In Europe there appear to be good, professional importers of chain servicing the large European market. Here the market is very small and I have a fear they may focus more on cost than on using one regular supplier. Maybe my fears are unfounded.
Interestingly though our market is small for chain (compared to the 'single' market of Europe) we still have a wealth of galvanisers strung down the east coast all of whom can re-galvanise chain. Neither of the two chain makers galvanise in house (and subcontract) and there are other galvanisers whom I know will coat chain.
But I agree with you - its horses for courses. If you have a heavy displacement yacht then chain weight is not going to be the same issue as it will be for a plastic fantastic (aka AWB) and there is no one correct answer. I do note from a straw survey in our mooring field, where we have kept Josepheline for 20 years, that the number of heavy displacement yachts of a size to cruise is small - most of the yachts are Bav, Jenny or Benny - those AWBs. I also agree, and it is seldom underlined, that a mixed rode (or any use of rope in the rode) if not handled carefully is cause for a short life of the anchor chain. Chain sitting in close proximity to wet rope is a surefire way to encourage corrosion. The rope - somehow - needs to be stored separately so that the rope and chain can both dry. Really the rope needs to be 'hung up' (somehow) and the chain sit at the bottom of the locker, preferably stored clean and able to drain.
We too have a second rode, 15m of chain and 40m of rope and we store in a milk crate. The rope is coiled round the inside of the crate leaving a hole in the centre and the chain is stored in that hole. The crate is, obviously full of holes (as milk crates are) and the rope dries easily and the chain drains with the same effectiveness. Being lightweight, again - it is deployed by hand from the bow, or dinghy, and similarly retrieved. I do take the time and effort to pack it in the crate carefully.
Since the introduction of the modern electric windlass the use of a mixed rode has reduced dramatically though with the use of gypsies that will accept both chain and rope - maybe there is a trend back again. Here we don't see mixed rodes - the ambition of every owner is to cruise to 'The Reef' (often that ambition is never realised) and coral eats rope over night (it has a voracious appetite for synthetic fibres) - so we tend to see only all chain rodes.
Importantly it is reassuring to know your education has remained forefront - I was wondering if possibly you had been deprived of that parsimony - I can sleep soundly again knowing the Scots education system was evenly excellent with the same foci.
Jonathan
Interestingly though our market is small for chain (compared to the 'single' market of Europe) we still have a wealth of galvanisers strung down the east coast all of whom can re-galvanise chain. Neither of the two chain makers galvanise in house (and subcontract) and there are other galvanisers whom I know will coat chain.
But I agree with you - its horses for courses. If you have a heavy displacement yacht then chain weight is not going to be the same issue as it will be for a plastic fantastic (aka AWB) and there is no one correct answer. I do note from a straw survey in our mooring field, where we have kept Josepheline for 20 years, that the number of heavy displacement yachts of a size to cruise is small - most of the yachts are Bav, Jenny or Benny - those AWBs. I also agree, and it is seldom underlined, that a mixed rode (or any use of rope in the rode) if not handled carefully is cause for a short life of the anchor chain. Chain sitting in close proximity to wet rope is a surefire way to encourage corrosion. The rope - somehow - needs to be stored separately so that the rope and chain can both dry. Really the rope needs to be 'hung up' (somehow) and the chain sit at the bottom of the locker, preferably stored clean and able to drain.
We too have a second rode, 15m of chain and 40m of rope and we store in a milk crate. The rope is coiled round the inside of the crate leaving a hole in the centre and the chain is stored in that hole. The crate is, obviously full of holes (as milk crates are) and the rope dries easily and the chain drains with the same effectiveness. Being lightweight, again - it is deployed by hand from the bow, or dinghy, and similarly retrieved. I do take the time and effort to pack it in the crate carefully.
Since the introduction of the modern electric windlass the use of a mixed rode has reduced dramatically though with the use of gypsies that will accept both chain and rope - maybe there is a trend back again. Here we don't see mixed rodes - the ambition of every owner is to cruise to 'The Reef' (often that ambition is never realised) and coral eats rope over night (it has a voracious appetite for synthetic fibres) - so we tend to see only all chain rodes.
Importantly it is reassuring to know your education has remained forefront - I was wondering if possibly you had been deprived of that parsimony - I can sleep soundly again knowing the Scots education system was evenly excellent with the same foci.
Jonathan
noelex
Well-Known Member
This may help. It was a test done by an Italian sailing magazine looking at the effects of rode weight on the anchor’s holding ability. They tested the holding power achieved with all chain, a combination of 10m of chain and the rest rope, and finally an all rope rode. This was done for three different scopes 3:1, 6:1 and 10:1. It was a 12kg anchor (Delta from memory) and 8mm chain.
The results were surprising with a very substantial improvement gained when using the heavier rode. The results are in Italian, but the holding powers in Kg are easy to see. “ara” is the maximum force just before the anchor started slowly dragging and “speda” is the maximum force just before the anchor broke out completely. The table below summarises the results:
A few cautions:
This is only one test. It would be nice to see other holding power measurements with different rode weight combinations. It should also be noted that the total weight of the chain was significant in some of the options (given the anchor weight). Adding all or indeed only some of this weight to the anchor by using a larger sized model would have, I suggest, resulted in higher holding power numbers. Finally, with all these tests you are better to read the full article rather than just the summary, but unfortunately I do not have a link.
vyv_cox
Well-Known Member
Maybe some contribution from the combination of Delta and the seabed consistency? My Fortress FX16 kedge has about 5 metres of 8 mm chain, otherwise anchorplait. It is the nature of kedging in all its varieties that it is rarely possible to place the anchor on an ideal bottom, particularly because the Fortress tends to 'soar' underwater, rarely going straight down. Despite this, I cannot remember a time when it failed to hold first time. Two years ago, due to a series of unfortunate incidents, I finished up anchoring in a full gale on the Fortress with a scope of only 3:1. It held first time and continued to do so for a couple of days. My previous experience with Delta on chain in a soft seabed was nowhere near as satisfactory and led to my purchase of a Rocna.
Neeves
Well-Known Member
We too regularly use a mixed rode, 15m of 6mm G80 and 40m of 3 ply nylon. We would use this with a 8kg aluminium Spade or a FX16 or FX37 Fortress. Previously we used the same rode with a FX23. We have never had a problems with the Spade nor Fortress setting first time. We would set this spare rode in a 'V' with our 8kg aluminium Excel on a 6mm chain - and we have never found that the Spade or Fortress preferentially dragged compared to the Excel.
Many racing yachts use mixed rodes consisting of a short length of chain plus textile (to save weight.) They do use use their anchors, the Volvo fleet, with identical Fortress, when crossing Storm Bay in S Africa to stem a tide - they all anchored in a big clump next to each other. On the Vendee Gopbe they too use mixed rodes - and there have been 2 instances of yachts anchoring in Sandy Bay in Auckland Island (which is deep in the Southern Ocean). The first yacht to do so sawed through the rope warp and re-anchored a second time with the spare anchor. There was never an issue with setting.
I cannot comment on use of a mixed rode with a Delta - I have never tried it. But the Clipper fleet use Delta anchor with mixed rodes - they do use their anchors and practice use of the anchors, with mixed rode, is part of training. If there were issues - I suspect changes would be made.
It goes without saying that a larger anchor would have a higher ultimate hold.
I think we need more detail of these Italian tests to be able comment with any rigour - but they do not appear to be typical.
Jonathan
Many racing yachts use mixed rodes consisting of a short length of chain plus textile (to save weight.) They do use use their anchors, the Volvo fleet, with identical Fortress, when crossing Storm Bay in S Africa to stem a tide - they all anchored in a big clump next to each other. On the Vendee Gopbe they too use mixed rodes - and there have been 2 instances of yachts anchoring in Sandy Bay in Auckland Island (which is deep in the Southern Ocean). The first yacht to do so sawed through the rope warp and re-anchored a second time with the spare anchor. There was never an issue with setting.
I cannot comment on use of a mixed rode with a Delta - I have never tried it. But the Clipper fleet use Delta anchor with mixed rodes - they do use their anchors and practice use of the anchors, with mixed rode, is part of training. If there were issues - I suspect changes would be made.
It goes without saying that a larger anchor would have a higher ultimate hold.
I think we need more detail of these Italian tests to be able comment with any rigour - but they do not appear to be typical.
Jonathan