Centenary of the Death of the Author of "Riddle of the Sands"

[Jan Harber]

Sam Llewelyn's "The shadow in the sands", which is written as a "sequel"to the book, is a good read, not to be missed.
Link

The Riddle by Maldwin Drummond is also not to be missed. It was originally published in 1985, there is also a 2016 edition with illustrations by Martyn Mackrell. An incredibly well researched book with amazing detail about Vixen, the model for Dulcibella and a wealth of information about Childers himself.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

A sombre anniversary.

As a footnote, in 1916, Erskine Childers (who had been an observer in the RN Air Setvice), was seconded to the newly formed CMB torpedo boats with a view to assessing their use for attacking the German fleet in a reverse Riddle of the sands. 16 of the 40 ft CMBs were built, of which my 20 yr old Grandfather, Lt (at the time) WS Green RN, was the captain of CMB1. He is the fresh faced lad marked with a red spot.

This is a photo of the original crews of the 40 foot CMBs from that period, and I’m trying to put names to those present. I’m not sure if Childers was in the photo, but wonder if he might be the chap third from the left in the seated row. He’d obviously be one of the older men present (he’d have turned 46 in the summer of 1916), and I think by that stage a Lt Cdr RNVR.

In 1917 Childers was relieved of his Naval duties, and sent to work on Lloyd George’s Irish Home Rule Commission. The second photo is of Childers as a Naval officer.

View attachment 146684

View attachment 146685

Third from left, seated, is definitely not Childers. He doesn't seem to be in that photo.

 

[LittleSister]

Third from left, seated, is definitely not Childers.

Spoil sport. You'll be trying to tell us next that the Riddle of the Sands isn't true!

 

[Frogmogman]

Third from left, seated, is definitely not Childers. He doesn't seem to be in that photo.

Thanks. I suspect those in the photos are just the boat crews, and their CO.

FWIW, the only other ones I have managed to identify are Archie Dayrell Reed DSO, and Harold Drew DSC (both of CMB9) and Walter Beckett MVO, DSC.

There is a link to a previous thread about the convoys to relieve Malta; specifically operation Pedestal. Harold Drew was the Captain of HMS Manchester when she was lost off Tunisia on 13th August 1942.

If any of you can enlighten me as to the identity of any of the others, I’d be most grateful.

 

[Blueboatman]

Just a fyi
Todays D T reprinted it’s 1922 coverage of his death . On the letters page

( I am still in hazy waters pondering who was who in this period of turmoil but it will come clear .)

 

[NealB]

Just a fyi
Todays D T reprinted it’s 1922 coverage of his death . On the letters page

( I am still in hazy waters pondering who was who in this period of turmoil but it will come clear .)

Thank you ....... not my favourite paper, these days, but my 94 yo parents still have it delivered daily, so I'll pop round for a skeet later.

 

[Blueboatman]

Thank you ....... not my favourite paper, these days, but my 94 yo parents still have it delivered daily, so I'll pop round for a skeet later.

Aye
The broadsheets all have their facets and strengths.
Guardian arts
DT accuracy of the facts behind the story
Times ‘ we run the establishment, old chap’
And the FT for the money that makes it all happen

( my old mum was a sub ed,
It was exotic/ fun as a lad when they put the paper to bed of an evening, fired up the presses and the building would gently rumble and you stand around not understanding all the gossip as the journalists hit the in-house bar ‘ on their way out’ ??

 

[NealB]

I'm nowhere near brave enough to argue with your summary: well, except to say it's totally wrong (of course)

(Edit: in reply to Blueboatman #27)

 

[Blueboatman]

I'm nowhere near brave enough to argue with your summary: well, except to say it's totally wrong (of course)

Indeed
It’s a summary not the summary ??

Just wish I could grasp C20th Irish history in any sort of sense !

 

[Frogmogman]

Aye
The broadsheets all have their facets and strengths.
Guardian arts
DT accuracy of the facts behind the story
Times ‘ we run the establishment, old chap’
And the FT for the money that makes it all happen

That was true of the Telegraph back in the days of Bill Deedes and Max Hastings, but those days are long gone, sadly. It also was the best for sport (except football) when I was a lad. The Barclay twins have reduced it to a pale shadow of it’s former self. It’s nothing but a comic filled with clickbait now; a broadsheet version of the Daily Mail.

I still like the DT’s cryptic crossword, which I can look at via the online subscription that accompanies my elderly parents’ daily paper. They still take it as well as the Times out of habit, whilst constantly bemoaning what rubbish both papers are these days.

 

[Frogmogman]

Just wish I could grasp C20th Irish history in any sort of sense !

I’m listening to the excellent “Empire” podcast, with Anita Anand and William Dalrymple, about the history of England’s involvement in the sub-continent. AA keeps wondering aloud how we aren’t taught about this in history in school, in view of how intertwined our history has been over the past 400 years. I agree with her, but feel this is even more true about the lack of teaching of Irish history in the curriculum; our involvement in the Emerald Isle stretches back twice as long.

I’m fairly well up on Irish history, as I’ve always been something of a student of it (mainly because of the Irish side of my ancestry). It would be helpful for our mutual understanding if the important parts of it were included in history lessons.

 

[Frogmogman]

Thanks. I suspect those in the photos are just the boat crews, and their CO.

FWIW, the only other ones I have managed to identify are Archie Dayrell Reed DSO, and Harold Drew DSC (both of CMB9) and Walter Beckett MVO, DSC.

There is a link to a previous thread about the convoys to relieve Malta; specifically operation Pedestal. Harold Drew was the Captain of HMS Manchester when she was lost off Tunisia on 13th August 1942.

If any of you can enlighten me as to the identity of any of the others, I’d be most grateful.

View attachment 146703

It occurred to me that there is another footnote that would have been of interest to forum members.

Walter “Joe” Beckett was something of a legend in the Navy; the RN heavyweight boxing champion, a swashbuckling character who seemed to belong to another era.

It was Beckett who was detailed off to scuttle HMY Brittania on 10th July 1936, south of the IOW, following the death of George V.

 

[Blueboatman]

I’m listening to the excellent “Empire” podcast, with Anita Anand and William Dalrymple, about the history of England’s involvement in the sub-continent. AA keeps wondering aloud how we aren’t taught about this in history in school, in view of how intertwined our history has been over the past 400 years. I agree with her, but feel this is even more true about the lack of teaching of Irish history in the curriculum; our involvement in the Emerald Isle stretches back twice as long.

I’m fairly well up on Irish history, as I’ve always been something of a student of it (mainly because of the Irish side of my ancestry). It would be helpful for our mutual understanding if the important parts of it were included in history lessons.

Sounds good Intelligent stuff , thx for the link.
I have an Irish side to the ancestry too but the tales therein are, shall we say, highly variable !

 

[Frogmogman]

Sounds good Intelligent stuff , thx for the link.
I have an Irish side to the ancestry too but the tales therein are, shall we say, highly variable !

I’m a huge fan of William Dalrymple’s books. Very scholarly, and hugely readable. His book about the East India Company, Anarchy, is a fabulous read.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Just a fyi
Todays D T reprinted it’s 1922 coverage of his death . On the letters page

( I am still in hazy waters pondering who was who in this period of turmoil but it will come clear .)

Indeed
It’s a summary not the summary ??

Just wish I could grasp C20th Irish history in any sort of sense !

It was largely the consequence of the history of the preceding eight centuries, which was taught intensively in Irish schools in my youth, but stopped dead at the Truce, of July 1921, because the events which followed it were still too painful to discuss, and that many of the participants were still alive, with some still participating in politics and holding high office.

 

[Spirit (of Glenans)]

Sounds good Intelligent stuff , thx for the link.
I have an Irish side to the ancestry too but the tales therein are, shall we say, highly variable !

The problem with oral history is just that, that it becomes highly variable and coloured to suit the purposes of those that retail it. It was what motivated so many misguided young men (and women) to go out and do terrible things in Ireland during the thirty-odd years of the Troubles.
Indeed, to illustrate distorted history; there is a group photograph, which includes my wife's grandfather, hanging on the walls in the homes of many of her older relatives. It shows a group of men in somewhat untidy-looking British- pattern WW1-era uniforms, some with cigarettes and pistols in hand, with various types of Lewis- and Vicker's machine guns at their feet, and a civilian posing with a Thompson submachine gun. There appears to be a sign on the wall behind them saying ;
"IRA Machine Gun School, Curragh Camp, 1922" It is stubbornly held by said, Republican-inclined, family members that their relative was in the IRA, but they ignore the facts that (a), the IRA did not wear uniforms, (b), the Curragh Camp was handed over directly from the British Army to the Irish Free State Army, (c), the civilian in the photograph was Richard Mulcahy, who had taken over as Minister for Defense following Michael Collins's death, and (d), the "sign" has quite obviously been scratched into the negative!
I'll try to post a photo of it.
Footnote: The Irish Free State Army, in 1922, was the first adopter of the Thompson submachine gun as a weapon used in a military conflict.

 

[Blueboatman]

It’s all fascinating
I am going to suggest that coming at this from the sailing perspective , fleshed out by these insights, is a lot more illuminating than wot I was force fed at Skool.
(but there’s still homework to be done , usefully ??)
So, sincere thanks

 

[Capt Popeye]

Well the more I read up on them Ireland Troubles (not Irish) the more I do not understand , or comprehend at all ; that elusive word 'truth' appears it to to mean 'all things to all people' plus 'both sides' or indeed the many sides involved in the Troubles

Much indepted to Spirit who I gather is /was of Irish or Ire decent or upbringing , as his accounts bear the sign of a form of understanding that can only be aquired from the 'living the hell' personaly but coming out 'the other side' with a good form of understanding plus sensibilities intact

This account is much needed these days , in order to make a better understanding , amoungst us

So thank you Spirit
CP