Centaur Keel Diagnosis

dylanwinter

dylanwinter

Well-Known Member
Joined
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Buckingham
www.keepturningleft.co.uk
Three sets of Centaur keels

is it possible to tell from the outside how bad the join is?

Hopw bad is bad?

all advice gratefully received


Centaur 1

langstone-keel-1-1024x405.jpg


Centaur 2

marias-keels-1024x519.jpg


Centaur 3

keels-2-1024x509.jpg



rest of the days pics here

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/scuttlebutt/i-have-a-dream-please-help-me-save-a-centaur/
 
My understanding is that it is not so much the joint that is the problem but the actual GRP hull lay up around the keels.

Flexing of the GRP can cause failures. Especially a problem I believe with boats kept on moorings that dry into mud. The outward forces on the splayed keels as they sink into the mud and the opposite when the boat floats off again are what causes the problems

I know specifically of two cases.

One was a cherished boat on the Crouch. Problems around one keel were sorted out and the necessary strengthening carried by a well known yard in Ipswich.
One day the other keel stayed in the mud when the tide rose and the boat sank on its mooring ...... I don't know the final outcome but initially the insurance company tried to avoid coughing up on the basis that this was a problem the owners knew about!


The other was a boat moored in Langstone that overwinters at Paynes. Due to problems becoming apparent around the keels the boat was booked into a yard for repairs but it deteriorated so rapidly that it had to be taken out of the water well ahead of schedule ...... resulted in a big yard bill for storage!

There is quite a bit worth looking at on strengthening hull around the keels in the Westerly OA Yahoo discussion group. You have to register with Yahoo, but you don't have to be a member of the OA, to view it. ( look in the photos section! )

You will need access to the inside of the boats to check that the keel roots have been properly reinforced ..... unless it a job you are prepared to tackle yourself if they have not been done
 
VicS said:
My understanding is that it is not so much the joint that is the problem but the actual GRP hull lay up around the keels.

Flexing of the GRP can cause failures.
Click to expand...

Yup, that's what I have heard and it corresponds with the strengthening I had to do to my 1970s Laurent Giles Westerly. You might spot bad keels by obvious distortion, asymmetric gaps and so on, but those are sufficient and not necessary condition. Duff keels could look fine from outside.

I don't know if the problem persisted until Centaur production ended in 1980 or if Westerly ever improved things.
 
If what others have said the construction failed inside that is where you need to look. Also worth noting the keels that did fail failed with warning and normally after sitting in the mud.

Centaur 1
Note layer after layer of antifouling, pitting in keels looks like it has been going on for some time. My reading boat that has been sailed on a budget until abandoned expect all gear to be worn down except maybe 1 or 2 much highlighted new bits. If work done on keels probably a along time ago.

Centaur 2
Looks like she has been taken out of the water, at the end of the season. Anti-fouling build up not to great water line reasonable well painted hull well maintained for age. Just a season of yellowing. A boat probably with reasonable gear all round, looked after but not overly updated. Probably no hidden disasters waiting.

Centaur 3
Interesting boat, lack of anti fouling means some one has put some work in to strip it off, Keels being well painted and primed means again more work put in. Hopefully done structural work as well, although there is always the doubt they found the job they could not afford to finish.

From just these pictures (like guessing). I would consider 2&3 as my favorites because its not just about the keels, there is all the other equipment to consider. I know you say you do not care but if the keels are acceptable without known fault there are allot of other factors to consider sails rigging galley toilet etc etc...
 
JumbleDuck said:
Yup, that's what I have heard and it corresponds with the strengthening I had to do to my 1970s Laurent Giles Westerly. You might spot bad keels by obvious distortion, asymmetric gaps and so on, but those are sufficient and not necessary condition. Duff keels could look fine from outside.

I don't know if the problem persisted until Centaur production ended in 1980 or if Westerly ever improved things.
Click to expand...

Afaik there were no improvements during production. In fact if you read the notes on the WOA Website you will find that despite a different designer the problem affected the first 280 Griffons as well. Remedial work on the defective boats was partly to blame for the demise of Westerly Marine Construction in 1981
 
In short...

all Centaurs will have been afflicted

most will have been fixed

the problem is unlikely to be a sudden catastrophic failure if it does go

it is almost impossible to tell if it is a problem unless I look inside

I confess that I am starting to mither less about keel wobble

if it has been fixed.... wonderful

if it has not been fixed then it would be a tough call if keels which had clung to the hull for 403 years suddenly decided that year 44 when I own the boat is the time when they are going to fall off

I understand that the boat at Emsworth has been re-engined - so that it out for sure

boats 1 and 2 are still to be tracked down

the third one belongs to the owner of the yard...

so hopeful there

D
 
You could do a lot worse than jack up the hull and give the keels a damn good kick or hands-on 'wobble-by-force'. ( And I aint joking haha)..Now of course you cant go messing with other peoples boats or hanging 'em in slings whilst you wiggle or wobble, so I guess the paper trail, hull number, and internal visual inspection will suffice..

At the end of the day a keelbolt is a keelbolt is a worry unless inspected

It used to be that if you wanted to know a bout a boats hull integrity, thump the transom as this is where the laminate was invariably thinnest at build..
 
dylanwinter said:
Three sets of Centaur keels

is it possible to tell from the outside how bad the join is?

Hopw bad is bad?

all advice gratefully received
Click to expand...

Boat 1 could have a keel which had a bad start in life at the foundry. Some Westerly boats had a fair amount of fairing over imperfections. Also over time some kees suffer graphitisation which I see as a bigger problem and sometimes wonder if this has contributed to keel problems. I have one keel which has graphitisation on the lower forard corner and you can dig a knife into the bad parts. However it is extremely local and extends no more than an in inch or two from the edged. Take a wee hammer and tap keels on boat one around the pitted area. A second point about this boat is that the pitting is so extreme you may have lost imprtant joint surface area at the keel joint and I would not go for an epoxy build up in this area.

For the use you want the boat you will see if there are hints of a keel joint problem if inspecting the boat however you need to remove the divider bulkhead and sole from the sink unit cabinet to see the starboard bolts. In a flooded boat there may be exposed ply edge in this cabinet which could have de laminated.

Look for separation of bulkheads across the keel pod from the hull. My boat may never have been modified and has 5 items spanning each keel pod. They all look as good as new but then my boat started off life in Birdham Pool and then migrated to Falmouth before coming to bonny Scotland so not kept on a swinging mooring.

I feel there is a lot of emotion about this keel issue and some keel failures I have seen have been brought about by owners and yards fiddling and trying to correct leaks by just using big sockets and cheater bars which has resulted in crushing the layup below the nuts and washers. In one 34 ft Westerly the nuts had almost been driven right through the layup with successive over tightening and the keels could have soon dropped off..

My thoughts are that if you buy a 1973 Westerly and regardless of whether there has been over enthusiastic addition of egg box constructions in 1 " ply or anthing less which may in fact create other problems, and if there are no apparent problems and no sign of keel bolt leakage then these keels are more than likely fit for purpose for you. I would only have second thoughts if moving to a swinging mooring mud or sand, both of which can kill the keel joints on these boats .

Boats two and three do not seem to display and joint problem but better images of both sides might indicate otherwise.
 
rogerball0 said:
Looks like you had a productive day Dylan.
Click to expand...

There were bloomin scores of Centaurs - every yard had half a dozen

I only called into a few yeards and only had a poke around one sailing club

trying to find out which boats might be up for sale if I ask the right people is really tough


meantime a very kind forumite has said that I doss down in his boat

http://www.charter-direkt.com/fileadmin/c-upload/38/sportina760skizze.jpg

while looking around

meanwhile I will email a few of the clubs

so if anyone knows of any candidate boats

ideally I am after an A layout with a spade rudder

man I hope I can make this happen

D
 
Blueboatman said:
You could do a lot worse than jack up the hull and give the keels a damn good kick or hands-on 'wobble-by-force'. ( And I aint joking haha)..Now of course you cant go messing with other peoples boats or hanging 'em in slings whilst you wiggle or wobble, so I guess the paper trail, hull number, and internal visual .
Click to expand...

I had minor concerns over this when our Centaur came out of the water so when she was in a sling pushed and pulled like a mad man-not a mm, not even a cigarette paper of movement could I detect. Even so, this winter I started doubling up on the smaller bulkheads myself and will carry on doing so as time allows(I might even call it a structured rolling programme) - but there are a lot of bolts down there and for all of them to fail at once without noticing weakness in one or two must be almost negligent mustn't it? (Feel like I am tempting fate now)!
 
makes sense to me

Swanrad2 said:
I had minor concerns over this when our Centaur came out of the water so when she was in a sling pushed and pulled like a mad man-not a mm, not even a cigarette paper of movement could I detect. Even so, this winter I started doubling up on the smaller bulkheads myself and will carry on doing so as time allows(I might even call it a structured rolling programme) - but there are a lot of bolts down there and for all of them to fail at once without noticing weakness in one or two must be almost negligent mustn't it? (Feel like I am tempting fate now)!
Click to expand...

what you say makes sense to me and I might be mithering about not much

The most likely scenario is that I will find an old Centaur that has stood on her keels for the past five years. If her engine is broken there is a good chance that she is there because of the engine and not the keels. The keels might have deteriorated in that time - but as long as she is dry inside there is a good chance that they will be okay

I will put the mast up and with the aid of a rub dub and the six hp tohatsu I shall take her around to a place where I can work on her - http://www.thornhammarina.com/ seems the best bet

During the trip over I should find out if the keels leak. With any luck the mast will be up

if they do then that is a shame but perhaps I can stop them from leaking

then I will put her ashore

if the keels leak very badly then I am in trouble and at present I do not have a plan B

but assuming they do not leak much then I will

1/remove the engine - two blokes one day I am told

2/cut the hole and make the liner for the well - create the structural cupboard where the engine once was - two blokes one day

3/watch the man from wessex stick it all together

there will be other days dealing with the headlining and the rudientary cigarette lighter/truck fitting based electrical system a bit of painting and some duck punting

Once she is ready to go I can put her on one of the Thornham moorings which are £75 a month

I can then sail her up to scotland in the middle of may in one hit without stopping

if once I put her on the water she starts leaking like a sieve from water aqueezing past the keels then my my goose is cooked and I will have to more or less write off the £1500 I have invested in a sinking Centaur.

unless anyone has a better plan B
 
Swanrad2 said:
I had minor concerns over this when our Centaur came out of the water so when she was in a sling pushed and pulled like a mad man-not a mm, not even a cigarette paper of movement could I detect. Even so, this winter I started doubling up on the smaller bulkheads myself and will carry on doing so as time allows(I might even call it a structured rolling programme) - but there are a lot of bolts down there and for all of them to fail at once without noticing weakness in one or two must be almost negligent mustn't it? (Feel like I am tempting fate now)!
Click to expand...

Well done. As they say, on a dark, wet n windy night, it all makes sense and peace of mind..
 
dylanwinter said:
if the keels leak very badly then I am in trouble and at present I do not have a plan B
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If they leak because of old, cracked sealant then it's a pain, but perfectly sortable in a day. Prop keels, undo nuts, have boat lifted off, clean mating surfaces, go wild with the polysulfide, have boat lifted back on, tighten up nuts, spend three hours trying to remove polysulfide from your person, go to pub.

If it leaks because the hull is flexing significantly then it's a lot of a pain, but sortable in a week at most. The cure is well known and you are not a man to fight shy of flinging round some GRP. And PBO will probably give you a couple of pages for howyoudunnit.

However, you would have to be awful unlucky to buy a Centaur to which the keels have been dangling for 30 or 40 years only for them to fall off in your relatively brief planned ownership.
 
JumbleDuck said:
If they leak because of old, cracked sealant then it's a pain, but perfectly sortable in a day. Prop keels, undo nuts, have boat lifted off, clean mating surfaces, go wild with the polysulfide, have boat lifted back on, tighten up nuts, spend three hours trying to remove polysulfide from your person, go to pub.

If it leaks because the hull is flexing significantly then it's a lot of a pain, but sortable in a week at most. The cure is well known and you are not a man to fight shy of flinging round some GRP. And PBO will probably give you a couple of pages for howyoudunnit.

However, you would have to be awful unlucky to buy a Centaur to which the keels have been dangling for 30 or 40 years only for them to fall off in your relatively brief planned ownership.
Click to expand...

if they leak a little and wobble not at all can I slap jollop on the outside and jollop on the inside to slow up the leak?
 
dylanwinter said:
if they leak a little and wobble not at all can I slap jollop on the outside and jollop on the inside to slow up the leak?
Click to expand...

Putting "jollop" on the inside may not be very effective especially if the boat is in the water.

I have been in the market for a Centaur in the past and my thought at the time was to remove each keel stud nut in turn and put some polysulfide under where the big SS washer mates with the stub. In fact I also thought about doing some local reinforcing with GRP by sliding a greased tight tube over the stud so I could lay up round about it. You could even use masking tape. The best is of course to drop the keels.

However you have to get access. In the B layout I seem to recall that there was no problem on the port side but to get access to the stbd side required a bit of surgery. I think the C layout is ok as there is a bunk on either side so access there should be OK. I am not sure what the access is for the A layout as the dinette is right above the keel stub (I think).

Best of luck in your quest Dylan (it will make a best seller one day)
 
Jollop on the outside

Jcorstorphine said:
Putting "jollop" on the inside may not be very effective especially if the boat is in the water.

I have been in the market for a Centaur in the past and my thought at the time was to remove each keel stud nut in turn and put some polysulfide under where the big SS washer mates with the stub. In fact I also thought about doing some local reinforcing with GRP by sliding a greased tight tube over the stud so I could lay up round about it. You could even use masking tape. The best is of course to drop the keels.

However you have to get access. In the B layout I seem to recall that there was no problem on the port side but to get access to the stbd side required a bit of surgery. I think the C layout is ok as there is a bunk on either side so access there should be OK. I am not sure what the access is for the A layout as the dinette is right above the keel stub (I think).

Best of luck in your quest Dylan (it will make a best seller one day)
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thank you for this...

the boat will be ashore when I find it

is there any advantage to be had from scraping away at the join a little from the outside and shoving and smearing some sikaflex around the joint.

if so... which one


I mean this one looks pretty horrible?

http://www.keepturningleft.co.uk/wp-content/uploads/langstone-keel-1-1024x405.jpg
 
JumbleDuck said:
However, you would have to be awful unlucky to buy a Centaur to which the keels have been dangling for 30 or 40 years only for them to fall off in your relatively brief planned ownership.
Click to expand...


These are my thoughts too.....If no discolouration and old paint in the keel spaces then they should be OK for Dylan. :)
 
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