CE Marking

[Greg2]

Are you sure the engine has to meet today’s regs? From an automotive basis, the regs are applied from the build date, not retrospectively. For example, if you imported a 2000 year Mustang, it will not meet today’s emission regs, and this is ok.

It is something I need to check but my reading indicates that with CE/RCD it is the regs that apply at the time of certification that apply as opposed to those that applied at the time of build. Doesn’t make a lot of sense but that is bureaucracy for you!

 

[rafiki_]

It is something I need to check but my reading indicates that with CE/RCD it is the regs that apply at the time of certification that apply as opposed to those that applied at the time of build. Doesn’t make a lot of sense but that is bureaucracy for you!

I’m sorry but this makes no sense at all, and is contrary to most of the Eu Regs as applied to the UK.

 

[Greg2]

I’m sorry but this makes no sense at all, and is contrary to most of the Eu Regs as applied to the UK.

Well I will be delighted if you are right

I am only reflecting what I have managed to find with my research - it is a complex subject but as it stands it seems that the illogical applies to CE / RCD certification of recreational boats. Lots of forums chat is inclined to this view and the Broker was of the same view. As I say, I would be delighted if my initial findings are entirely wrong

 

[Assassin]

Well I will be delighted if you are right

I am only reflecting what I have managed to find with my research - it is a complex subject but as it stands it seems that the illogical applies to CE / RCD certification of recreational boats. Lots of forums chat is inclined to this view and the Broker was of the same view. As I say, I would be delighted if my initial findings are entirely wrong

Actually Rafiki is correct as the CE regs are confusing and compounded by the assumption that any engines tested will be new engines directly from the manufacturers and this is why they state that the CE marking only applied from the date of testing, when in reality most refitted engines are also newer than those being replaced as very few people actually fit older engines than they have.

Your CE marking is taken from the date of manufacture and if you have an engine manufactured in July 2005 then it must meet the emissions standards in force during July 2005 and not 2019 as these are older engines, however, some engines were made during an emissions change and if an emissions change began on 1st September 2005 and you had an engine built on 30th August it would need to meet the older standards and if it was built on 2nd September then it would have to comply with the new emissions standards introduced the day before, but the later engine would have tweaks to meet the new standards.

Many engines are "world engines" which basically means the same engine is used in the same application throughout the world, but different emissions standards apply in different parts of the world so they set the engines up slightly differently to meet the emissions standards for that particular emissions standards and on basic engines this is usually minor changes or setting them differently, and on newer electronically controlled engines they would require the software changing for that particular emissions zone, and this is fairly cheaply done.

 

[Greg2]

Interesting. According to some info I found the engine in question complied with EU regs at the time. In fact it complied with regs due to come into effect in 2006, so slightly ahead of itself. So if you are both correct and the CE regs that apply would be the 2005 versions then all good.

As already said, that isn’t what my research so far indicates but I am no expert and I really do hope that I am not right on this point

 

[rafiki_]

Interesting. According to some info I found the engine in question complied with EU regs at the time. In fact it complied with regs due to come into effect in 2006, so slightly ahead of itself. So if you are both correct and the CE regs that apply would be the 2005 versions then all good.

As already said, that isn’t what my research so far indicates but I am no expert and I really do hope that I am not right on this point

Greg, you have a couple of options. You can give CE Proof a call and see what they tell you, or call the Tech Dept at either the RYA or the BMF (not sure if it is called this any more). The UK Govt Dept responsible for these regs is BEIS. You will need a lot of patience to find someone who understands the regs there. The enforcement body is Trading Standards. Again, good luck in. Finding someone there who is interested.

 

[Greg2]

Greg, you have a couple of options. You can give CE Proof a call and see what they tell you, or call the Tech Dept at either the RYA or the BMF (not sure if it is called this any more). The UK Govt Dept responsible for these regs is BEIS. You will need a lot of patience to find someone who understands the regs there. The enforcement body is Trading Standards. Again, good luck in. Finding someone there who is interested.

Thanks.
I plan to talk to CE Proof in the first instance and will see how I get on. I am expecting it not to be easy!

 

[rafiki_]

Thanks.
I plan to talk to CE Proof in the first instance and will see how I get on. I am expecting it not to be easy!

It is not a question about being easy, but about you getting the right info to make a sensible decision. Good luck!

 

[jfm]

Thanks for all the comments. I am reasonably happy that CE is required and that current rules would apply.
An interesting discovery re VAT status as it transpires that the owners moved from outside the EU to the UK as as a possession the vessel was VAT exempt and this is a permanent state of affairs. Wasn’t aware of this particular exemption.

This is 100% correct: if you move your personal residence from non EU into an EU country then you can bring your personal possessions with you and they are automatically VAT paid even though you don’t actually pay vat on them. There is a bunch of paperwork you must do, all bespoke to the EU country you move into. And there is a short time limit (about a year but you need to check) during which you may not sell the item (else you trigger the vat payment).

 

[Sticky Fingers]

Thanks for all the comments. I am reasonably happy that CE is required and that current rules would apply.
An interesting discovery re VAT status as it transpires that the owners moved from outside the EU to the UK as as a possession the vessel was VAT exempt and this is a permanent state of affairs. Wasn’t aware of this particular exemption.

OK found it. Might be OK ref VAT and Duty...!

https://www.gov.uk/government/publi...ailing-your-pleasure-craft-to-and-from-the-uk

Form:
https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/application-for-transfer-of-residence-tor-relief-tor01

Original importing owner has to apply.

This is 100% correct: if you move your personal residence from non EU into an EU country then you can bring your personal possessions with you and they are automatically VAT paid even though you don’t actually pay vat on them. There is a bunch of paperwork you must do, all bespoke to the EU country you move into. And there is a short time limit (about a year but you need to check) during which you may not sell the item (else you trigger the vat payment).

Hi jfm,

Did I quote the right bits here? I'm no expert as probably anyone can tell...!

 

[jfm]

To be honest I haven’t read it all. I just posted the correction when I read something half way up the page thAt said vat was due, which was wrong. I now see plenty of links above but they are pointless in this case. One should read the actual law, and consult .gov.uk, but ignore Mickey Mouse leaflets by RYA which as I have said on here many time are often wrong. Of course there is a difference as to your personal legal position between .gov.uk being wrong and RYA being wrong - that’s complex area of law in itself (“legitimate expectation”). If you want to understand complex law read the law or find someone who can and imho don’t ask RYA.

 

[jfm]

... I will get absolute confirmation if ...

Don’t rely on a yacht broker to tell you what that looks like!

 

[Assassin]

that’s complex area of law in itself (“legitimate expectation”).

Yes it is and I would concur, get an legal expert to interpret it for you as it is a minefield and the last thing you need is to misinterpret it and make any assumptions.

 

[Greg2]

Don’t rely on a yacht broker to tell you what that looks like!

Absolutely not!
And thanks for your confirmation on the VAT point, much appreciated. I am given to understand that the vendor has done what he had to do when they moved to the UK and I have seen the letter from HMRC but not the actual form (Broker says he has it and I can see it when we go over to view).

 

[Beamishken]

Thanks.
I plan to talk to CE Proof in the first instance and will see how I get on. I am expecting it not to be easy!

When I had CE proof certify my 3760 regal they advised that the engines had to comply with the european standards at time of certification not time of manufacture.
This was about 7 years ago & things may have changed but that was their advice at the time.
The whole process was relatively straightforward for us & not particularly costly in the grand scheme of things, about 2k all told for a boat approaching £100k value at the time.

 

[richardjacobs]

The right answer was in the first response. Talk to CEProof.
What has not been discussed here is the question of where responsibility for RCD compliance lies. RCD is about “putting into service”, not “using”. So responsibility lies with the importer (presumably the current owner in this case) and cannot be transferred to anyone else (e.g. you). I think there is an exception for visiting non-EU boats (possibly only if they arrive on their own bottoms), but this requires subsequent removal from the EU.
So if the boat is already in the EU, you shouldn’t need to worry about RCD compliance. The only restriction is that you cannot sell the boat “commercially”. I take this to mean “with the intention of making a profit”… not something that comes up for most of us. You can sell it privately. There’s no legal barrier to using a broker.
I would expect CEProof to refuse to assess the boat, as you are not the importer. Of course you should satisfy yourself that the boat is safe to use and may need to explain all this to a future purchaser. My insurer didn’t care.
You should also satisfy yourself that the EU import tariffs on US boats are not going to come into play (25%+VAT). Then there are gas safety requirements, AC electrics...

 

[Greg2]

The right answer was in the first response. Talk to CEProof.
What has not been discussed here is the question of where responsibility for RCD compliance lies. RCD is about “putting into service”, not “using”. So responsibility lies with the importer (presumably the current owner in this case) and cannot be transferred to anyone else (e.g. you). I think there is an exception for visiting non-EU boats (possibly only if they arrive on their own bottoms), but this requires subsequent removal from the EU.
So if the boat is already in the EU, you shouldn’t need to worry about RCD compliance. The only restriction is that you cannot sell the boat “commercially”. I take this to mean “with the intention of making a profit”… not something that comes up for most of us. You can sell it privately. There’s no legal barrier to using a broker.
I would expect CEProof to refuse to assess the boat, as you are not the importer. Of course you should satisfy yourself that the boat is safe to use and may need to explain all this to a future purchaser. My insurer didn’t care.
You should also satisfy yourself that the EU import tariffs on US boats are not going to come into play (25%+VAT). Then there are gas safety requirements, AC electrics...

My original understanding was that the current owner had brought the boat into the EU as part of a programme of extended cruising so the exemption from CE that applies to visiting boats would apply (albeit it may have been shipped accross from the US). It transpired that whilst this was the case (the extended cruising bit) the owners had actually moved to the UK, hence the boat came as a personal posession and was deemed vat paid ( as discussed in previous posts). That being the case I dont think that import tarriffs are a factor but my reading was that the boat should have had CE certification done at that point.

Your point about 'putting into service' versus 'using' is an interesting one and I had been wondering whether there was somehting along these lines that meant that CE certification is not required in these circumstances. Notwithstanding jfm's comment about not relying on the Broker as a definitve source he was expressing the view that CE certification is not required in this case.

I will be speaking with CEProof, who for what it is wirht have now merged with HPI Verification Services.

 

[Rickard]

this isnt true. Only privately built boats are exempt and even then you have to own them for a certain amount of time after build.
My american import had to be CE marked, even though it was a model you could buy here.

edit - rules here.
https://www.rya.org.uk/knowledge-advice/legal/buying-a-boat/Pages/recreational-craft-directive.aspx
you need a CE mark if a home built boat is put on the market within 5 years of completion.

I know the rules around CE-certification very well
The rules says you need it yes but do you actually need it? No you don´t
Unfortunately CE works pretty bad on boats who tend to have a long life and the fact that we make changes to the boat over the years
If you have the little sign or sticker with CE on your boat it doesn´t mean that your boat actually is CE-certified
At one point it was yes but now is a different story
For example
If you don´t have the paperwork that says that your particular boat uppfills all requirements for CE your boat is no longer CE-approved(not many people has these paperwork)
If you changed engine from a Penta 41 to KAD44 your boat is no longer CE-approved due to the higher hp
If you change from gas to diesel engine your boat is no longer CE-approved
If you change from Mercruiser 5.7 to Volvo Penta 5.7 your boat is no longer CE-approved
The list can be made pretty long
In other words there are thousands and thousands of boats out there who no longer is CE-approved
Add all the boats who had CE made by the german company Navalis Yachts which later turned out to be non valid
Also the fact that CE is a self controlled certification with absolutely no control at all

There for I say skip the CE and enjoy your boat. It won´t be better or safer with CE
If you still plan to do the CE you can always try to find the person who imported the boat once if it´s the same person who sold you the boat as he or she is responsible for the CE when putting it on the EU-market

 

[Greg2]

I know the rules around CE-certification very well
The rules says you need it yes but do you actually need it? No you don´t
Unfortunately CE works pretty bad on boats who tend to have a long life and the fact that we make changes to the boat over the years
If you have the little sign or sticker with CE on your boat it doesn´t mean that your boat actually is CE-certified
At one point it was yes but now is a different story
For example
If you don´t have the paperwork that says that your particular boat uppfills all requirements for CE your boat is no longer CE-approved(not many people has these paperwork)
If you changed engine from a Penta 41 to KAD44 your boat is no longer CE-approved due to the higher hp
If you change from gas to diesel engine your boat is no longer CE-approved
If you change from Mercruiser 5.7 to Volvo Penta 5.7 your boat is no longer CE-approved
The list can be made pretty long
In other words there are thousands and thousands of boats out there who no longer is CE-approved
Add all the boats who had CE made by the german company Navalis Yachts which later turned out to be non valid
Also the fact that CE is a self controlled certification with absolutely no control at all

There for I say skip the CE and enjoy your boat. It won´t be better or safer with CE
If you still plan to do the CE you can always try to find the person who imported the boat once if it´s the same person who sold you the boat as he or she is responsible for the CE when putting it on the EU-market

This is interesting thanks. We don't own the boat - it is currently for sale on brokerage by the people who first brought it into the EU and our primary concern is about eventual re-sale and not putting ourselves in a disadvantageous position by having something that is very difficult to sell.

I have just spoken with HPI/CEProof and the person I spoke to advised that the boat should have had CE certification (RCD) done at the time that the boat was first brought into the EU. The current owner is responsible for getting it done and it is not something we could do as prospective or actual purchasers. They confirm that it is the current rules that would apply, with some exemptions, as opposed to those that applied when the boat was built. It is possible that the engine might comply with some rules that allow its use (it needs to be CE approved and the boat brought brought into the EU before January 2017, which it was)

So some answers and an indication of cost. The key thing will be if there is a problem with the engine or not.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

For example
If you don´t have the paperwork that says that your particular boat uppfills all requirements for CE your boat is no longer CE-approved(not many people has these paperwork)
If you changed engine from a Penta 41 to KAD44 your boat is no longer CE-approved due to the higher hp
If you change from gas to diesel engine your boat is no longer CE-approved
If you change from Mercruiser 5.7 to Volvo Penta 5.7 your boat is no longer CE-approved
The list can be made pretty long
In other words there are thousands and thousands of boats out there who no longer is CE-approved
Add all the boats who had CE made by the german company Navalis Yachts which later turned out to be non valid
Also the fact that CE is a self controlled certification with absolutely no control at all

Actually the way you have put it is not quite correct. Yes you are correct that if you change anything on a CE certified boat (or any other CE certified product) it is possible that you may void the CE certification but in theory the onus is then on the owner to get the boat re-certified and usually the only people who can do that is the manufacturer of the boat. So in theory, the owner should be contacting the manufacturer to advise them of any changes to the boat. Then in theory the manufacturer should be examining whats known as the Technical File to decide whether the changes do indeed void the CE certificate and, if so, what further modifications are required to ensure that the boat continues to meet the requirements for CE certification

Of course, in practice, none of that happens and owners happily make changes to their boats without thinking about whether they are voiding the CE certificate and the manufacturers dont care anyway and, as you say, there is no CE certificate police anywhere to control this anyway. However, there are 2 points to note. If an owner does modify his boat and that modification leads to an accident, then the authorities just might prosecute the owner on the basis of having voided the CE certificate. This happens in industrial situations although I've never heard of it happening to a private individual. Secondly a CE certificate is still part of the boat sales process so if a boat doesnt have a CE certificate or it is obvious to a potential buyer that modifications to the boat may have voided the CE certificate then the boat might be harder to sell