Cats Out Performing Monos to Wind

[Jeannius]

[ QUOTE ]
So you mean better VMG.....

This may well be possible on certain modern cats wit dagger boards and fine hulls, but generally, i'd still be surprised if a cruising cat had a VMG advantage.

It will however, leave a mono for dead downwind!

[/ QUOTE ]

Gludy is talking about a Privilege 435 -with relatively deep, for a cat, keels - fully laden for liveaboard... air conditioning, watermaker, solar panels, windgenerator etc. And yes, we regularly do a better vmg than the average mono sailing to windward up the Drake Channel in the BVI.

Quite often we point higher than most of the Sunsail and Mooring monos as well but that probably says more about the standard of sailing than the type of boat!

 

[PembrokeshirePromise]

No - I reckon you've got it pretty much right - that was the biggest lesson for me on TCMs cat.

Mind you as others say - its only a problem if you try and sail with the main up - apparently downwind on a cat you shouldn't have the main up at all - you should have cruising chute etc - in which case its not a problem. Also avoids the nasty screwing round you can get with a following sea.

Then the challenge is keeping the cruising chute up without breaking anything - on a big cat they take a fair bit of untangling !

As for VMG to windward - a typical mono might manage 30 degrees whereas a Cat might manage 60. The Cat has to be going significantly faster than the mono to make that difference up on VMG - I'm sure it could happen in certain circumstances - but not normal I'd suggest.

Very limited experience of tacking a Cat up a channel suggests its not something I'd normally bother with - time for the engines ...

 

[Gludy]

[ QUOTE ]
and it's propensity to capsize is much. much lower.

[/ QUOTE ]

Oh dear ... that remark shows a little of living in ages past. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I really think if you study the subject, you may find that cruising cats are almost impossible to capsize but it really nice that they do not sink!! Maybe that is why some insurance companies now offer lower premiums to cruising cats. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

I had already stated that its the VMG that I was talking about, I spelt it out because it was still being queried.

 

[maxi77]

I too have seen a cat outsaila monohull, but that was down the thecat skipper being ultra competitive (dinghy sailor) and the average monhull cruiser being rather lacadasical. I suspect that a 'keen' monohull will normally outperform the 'keen' cat upwind.

Now trimarans are once again a different beast again.

 

[Gludy]

Ok ... when I publish the video, maybe some comments will be forthcoming then. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[Twister_Ken]

"when I publish the video"

Cannardly wait.

 

[boatmike]

Just like monos, cats are all different, most cruising cats have backstays. Mine certainly does! 2in fact. Without backstays the outer shrouds have to be swept back. Sometimes this allows for a longer boom. Personally I don't like that set up at all on a cruising boat, mono or cat.

 

[BurnitBlue]

I sailed Cats for five years cruising both sides of the Atlantic. It generated a distinct community among other catamaran cruisers, so during that time I was exposed to different but biased opinions. Despite the vested interest, I never met or heard of one cat that could out perform a similar sized mono to windward.

ICM hit the nail on the head with his observation of flat water. A cat does not have the weight/size ratio to punch through head seas, that is their achilles heel. Also "racing" a well prepared cat in calm water against charter vessels is not a good yardstick.

I remember a stripped out French racing cat based in Martinique that used to annoy arriving monos by sailing out to meet them and then sailing rings round them. Its easy to do when you can pick your targets.

I'm sorry Gludy, much as I would like to agree with you, the average catamaran will not sail to windward better than an average mono in normal unprotected seas.

 

[Chrusty1]

[ QUOTE ]
"when I publish the video"

Cannardly wait.

[/ QUOTE ]

Me anall! Still it really depends on how you define performance doesn't it? I define performance as sea keeping ability, not just how fast a boat, (any boat) is.

No Cat, or light displacement mono, will out perform a nice heavy displacement, long keeled monohull, using my definition of performance.

At the end of the day, it's all about horses for courses, cats have their place in the scheme of things, as do most other kinds of boats. I know that folks will say that beauty is in the eye of the beholder, but why, oh why, do they have to design cruising cats so perishing butt ugly!?? They look like something built by a caravan manufacturer!

I will say though, that some of the modern racy jobbies do look good, and go like the clappers, and if was younger (a lot) and fitter, I think I would enjoy one of those, just for thrashing around the bay, for long deep sea voyaging, I would still want a good old heavy displacement long keeled mono. Pointing up is not the be all and end all, except for those of a highly competitive nature, that wish to go blasting around the cans every weekend, and on a passage of a few thousand miles across oceans, within limits pointing ability is almost an irrelevance.

All the above is just IMHO........Well not all that humble really /forums/images/graemlins/grin.gif

 

[boatmike]

I envy you. The St Francis 50 is a big boat and a very good sailing performer.
I think most of the posts on here are considering the average cat compared to the average mono. I would generally agree with their comments. However, having sailed boats of this size and larger I can attest to the fact that the cats disadvantages against the mono reduce considerably with OAL and it's a completely different experience. The directional stability and sheer speed of a 50 footer is awesome. It's also a function of how well the boat is set up and the sea state.
I therefore have several questions
1. Were the monos generally shorter waterline length? If so a bigger boat will always go faster on any point of sail.
2. Was it in a good blow? If so the big cat will press on where the monos will start to be stopped by big waves and unable to carry enough sail to press on through like the big cat.
3. In high winds monos need to reef and often try to carry too much sail. The big pussy reefs too but stays upright sailing more efficiently.

I once sailed on a 62 ft Dean cat from Hobart to Sydney. The sea state was awful and the wind on the nose all the way. We tacked for three days until the wind changed and abated and the boat performed superbly. We were able to sleep easily off watch, cook, eat, and generally live normally cruising effortlessly past smaller monos that were really struggling. It's the experience that converted me to cats for life. It's not the light air performance to windward that matters on a blue water boat it's the ability to plug on in all weathers.

 

[Gludy]

[ QUOTE ]
I'm sorry Gludy, much as I would like to agree with you, the average catamaran will not sail to windward better than an average mono in normal unprotected seas.


[/ QUOTE ]

I have not stated differently and frankly do not have the experience of both to compare.
What I have stated is what I have observed to date and that is out there sailing, our VMG was better than the monohulls on the same course.

I also agree that most monohulls will point closer to the wind but the cat seems to more than make up for the fact that is points at a slightly greater angle by having a higher speed - again just my observations to date.

These observations are not based on racing - they are based on both types of boats doing what they do out their cruising around.

The video I am now editing will be published on the web and will probably end up another 30 to 40 minute blockbuster. In that video, you can see what I observed on a number of occasions and then you will be able to draw your own conclusions from those same observations. It is only weeks away before its finished.

 

[Gludy]

I was in a Privilege 435 not the St Francis and I consider that a slower boat than the St Francis.

[ QUOTE ]
1. Were the monos generally shorter waterline length? If so a bigger boat will always go faster on any point of sail.

[/ QUOTE ]
No - they were about the same size - you can judge on the video when its out.

[ QUOTE ]
2. Was it in a good blow? If so the big cat will press on where the monos will start to be stopped by big waves and unable to carry enough sail to press on through like the big cat.

[/ QUOTE ]

Not really - on both occasions when I filmed the sea state was pretty calm although the wind was in the region of 20 knots - a typical wind speed out there. We were reefed because Mike the skipper normally sailed in a conservative fashion having just lost a light wind sail to a sudden 35 knot plus gust from nowhere.

[ QUOTE ]
3. In high winds monos need to reef and often try to carry too much sail. The big pussy reefs too but stays upright sailing more efficiently.

[/ QUOTE ]

The mono's were not taking it to the limit - no rails in the water, although in both cases filmed, we were also taking it very easy. I believe that in both cases they were still trying to catch up.

The video is the fourth in the series covering my pilgrimage from power to sail.

The fifth video is already in the can but editing has yet to start on that.

In making the videos I am simply giving my candid observations at the time.

Links to the videos will be posted on this forum.

If anyone wants the links to the first three videos - just ask.

 

[photodog]

Sounds like your having a great time... the BVI's at this timeof year are great....

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

Just a few comments....

1) The standard of sailing amongst the bareboats in the BVI's is generally pretty poor.... I found that I could generally outsail to windward virtually ANY other boat I came up against whilst out their..... /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
2) Local knowledge in the Drake channel wil afford considerable advantage going to windward....
3) If its built buy man, it can sink... including cats... ask scillypete.

/forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

 

[Gludy]

Only the last day was in BVI and one of the boats out sailed was there ..... I agree there is a very low standard there. However the other times were in the Leeward Islands not the BCI.
[ QUOTE ]
If its built buy man, it can sink... including cats... ask scillypete

[/ QUOTE ]
That must be true /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
So I will rephrase it.

The chances of a modern multihull sinking are tiny compared to the chance of a monohull losing its keel and capsizing!!! /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

Mind you, losing a keel and a capsize has to be preferred to just plain old sinking /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif

 

[moondancer]

Gludy I am sure your cat will be lovely and will be a fantastic cruising boat.

However the question I think you asked was is an average cruising cat quicker upwind (VMG) than an average cruising fin keeler.

The answer is no.

you'll be quicker on a lot of other points of sail - but sailing up a channel, as you asked, the answer is no. VMG will be quicker and tacking speed will be quicker.

 

[Gludy]

Thanks for a straight answer to the question.

I do not have enough experience to dispute it and can only state that, so far, I have only witnessed the opposite. /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif