Catenary?

vyv_cox

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Catenary.jpg
This photo was taken as I was setting my Rocna with the engine reversing at 2500 rpm. I now know that this is matched almost exactly by wind strength force 6.

Although I am well aware that the chain is not exactly straight, it is visibly very close to it. This was in a depth of 4-5 metres with a scope of around 4:1. Catenary is just about non-existent.

Photo taken by noelex's 'mermaid'.
 

rogerthebodger

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From the forces on a catenary

The cable follows the shape of a parable and the horizontal support forces can be calculated as

R1x = R2x

= q L2 / (8 h) (1)

where

R1x = R2x = horizontal support forces (lb, N) (equal to midspan lowest point tension in cable)

q = unit load (weight) on the cable (lb/ft, N/m)

L = cable span (ft, m)

h = cable sag (ft, m)




So a the sag on a catenary approached zero the horizontal forxe will approach infinitary

so the theory says you will never get a truly straight anchor chain ass the load will exceed the chain breaking oint before the chain becomes truly straight


The vertical will always be the total weight of the chain
 

vyv_cox

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From the forces on a catenary

The cable follows the shape of a parable and the horizontal support forces can be calculated as

R1x = R2x

= q L2 / (8 h) (1)

where

R1x = R2x = horizontal support forces (lb, N) (equal to midspan lowest point tension in cable)

q = unit load (weight) on the cable (lb/ft, N/m)

L = cable span (ft, m)

h = cable sag (ft, m)




So a the sag on a catenary approached zero the horizontal forxe will approach infinitary

so the theory says you will never get a truly straight anchor chain ass the load will exceed the chain breaking oint before the chain becomes truly straight


The vertical will always be the total weight of the chain
Catenary & Scope In Anchor Rode: Anchor Systems For Small Boats
This explains perfectly. As I said in my initial post there will always be a small amount of sag but it provides absolutely no elastic effect. Most would say that the chain in my photo, and the fabulous one by Peter Smith, is straight.
 

Stemar

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So a the sag on a catenary approached zero the horizontal forxe will approach infinitary

so the theory says you will never get a truly straight anchor chain ass the load will exceed the chain breaking oint before the chain becomes truly straight
That's fine if you're a mathematician. For sailors relying on the catenary to reduce snatch, Viv's photo is plenty straight enough to give 3/5 of sfa shock absorption.
 

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OK. Accepting all this & the NZ article, and being in the market for a new anchor and chain in due course, can the panel advise on the following.

1. Should I up size my anchor (currently a 25kg CQR on 60m of 10mm chain holding a 36' 10 tonne yacht)? I won't ask which anchor type to buy but let's assume Rocna.

2. If I use a part rope rode, how do you take the load off the bow roller (which is a mini bowsprit)? I always use a V bridle at present, with a long V to midship cleats in reserve for strong winds.

3. How do you lift a rope/chain rode? I find the rope drum angle and swap to chain a little fraught.

Currently I was inclined to current rode and a 25kg Rocna.
 

rogerthebodger

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That's fine if you're a mathematician. For sailors relying on the catenary to reduce snatch, Viv's photo is plenty straight enough to give 3/5 of sfa shock absorption.
Well a simple catenary is mathematical and as an Engineer the loads on a catenary is very important when you are dealing with a catenary like in suspension bridges

As the size of chain trend is to decrease the size thus weight and use higher strength the catenary effect to reduce snatch becomes less

To reduce snatch there needs to be other ways to reduce snatch line elastic rode or use of an angle to increase the catenary for lighter ground tackle
 

westernman

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OK. Accepting all this & the NZ article, and being in the market for a new anchor and chain in due course, can the panel advise on the following.

1. Should I up size my anchor (currently a 25kg CQR on 60m of 10mm chain holding a 36' 10 tonne yacht)? I won't ask which anchor type to buy but let's assume Rocna.

2. If I use a part rope rode, how do you take the load off the bow roller (which is a mini bowsprit)? I always use a V bridle at present, with a long V to midship cleats in reserve for strong winds.

3. How do you lift a rope/chain rode? I find the rope drum angle and swap to chain a little fraught.

Currently I was inclined to current rode and a 25kg Rocna.
I use a nylon bridle about 20m in total length (i.e. ~10m each side). This provides enough elasticity in the conditions where the rode is almost straight. And in light conditions it is then purely the chain order which provides for the "elasticity" in the system.
 

vyv_cox

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OK. Accepting all this & the NZ article, and being in the market for a new anchor and chain in due course, can the panel advise on the following.

1. Should I up size my anchor (currently a 25kg CQR on 60m of 10mm chain holding a 36' 10 tonne yacht)? I won't ask which anchor type to buy but let's assume Rocna.

2. If I use a part rope rode, how do you take the load off the bow roller (which is a mini bowsprit)? I always use a V bridle at present, with a long V to midship cleats in reserve for strong winds.

3. How do you lift a rope/chain rode? I find the rope drum angle and swap to chain a little fraught.

Currently I was inclined to current rode and a 25kg Rocna.
1. 25 kg is already large for a Rocna with your boat. I use a 16 kg Rocna on a 35 ft boat.

2. Could be tricky but how often will this be needed? I carry 63 metres of chain and have never needed more.

3. Many modern windlasses will handle rope and chain if spliced together. My Maxwell certainly will and no doubt others.
 

noelex

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The photo illustrates how with any reasonable wind, the catenary for all practical purposes disappears unless you anchoring in very deep water.

The catenary does have some role to play when initially setting the anchor. In the early stages of setting when the toe is starting to dig in, the anchor will have little holding ability and catenary or chain weight will help in keeping the direction of pull parallel to the seabed. This early stage when the anchor is just penetrating the seabed is important.

Most modern anchors in reasonable seabeds set remarkably reliably. Older designs, or modern anchors in difficult seabeds can struggle initially penetrating the seabed and here chain weight is a help.

For the best anchoring performance with the least amount of weight, choosing the largest anchor with the lightest rode will give the best results, but chain weight is of some help particularly when anchoring in substrates where the anchor design is struggling to penetrate the seabed. Anchor performance in difficult substrates is important.
 

Porthandbuoy

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"This photo was taken as I was setting my Rocna with the engine reversing at 2500 rpm. I now know that this is matched almost exactly by wind strength force 6."

How do you know that? No offence, I'm genuinely curious.

I was caught out a couple of years ago in what was supposed to be a snug, safe anchorage in what must have been at least an F6. I can vouch for the chain being bar taught and my climbing rope snubber, the full length of my boat, was the only thing proving elasticity. The snubber for my new boat is a bridle running down both side decks to stern cleats.
 

Trident

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For the best anchoring performance with the least amount of weight, choosing the largest anchor with the lightest rode will give the best results, but chain weight is of some help particularly when anchoring in substrates where the anchor design is struggling to penetrate the seabed. Anchor performance in difficult substrates is important.
So can you advise, from all your experience what combination of chain to rode you think best. I have 60m of 10mm chain on a 50 foot cat (9 tonnes loaded) with a 32kg Rocna which so far has never moved an inch in any conditions. However, I have just spent a bit of time and money removing a 60 kg anchor platform from the front of the boat to replace with a 12kg aluminium ladder frame I built to save weight, so having over 100kg of chain up front of the boat does seem to leave room for further weight savings but I have always believed it to be safer than rode due to the extra weight. Reading some of the detailed posts on here seem to disprove that. So given there must be some chain at the deep end, what do you suggest for chain to rode out of my 60M? And given I always use a bridle on a cat should I go strong dyneema rode or stretchy polypropylene etc ?
 

vyv_cox

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"This photo was taken as I was setting my Rocna with the engine reversing at 2500 rpm. I now know that this is matched almost exactly by wind strength force 6."

How do you know that? No offence, I'm genuinely curious.
Hours of observation using mask and snorkel. I have many photos too, so rewarding in clear Greek waters. Some here Oversize anchors – necessary? although not actually in F6 winds
 

Tranona

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"This photo was taken as I was setting my Rocna with the engine reversing at 2500 rpm. I now know that this is matched almost exactly by wind strength force 6."

How do you know that? No offence, I'm genuinely curious.

I was caught out a couple of years ago in what was supposed to be a snug, safe anchorage in what must have been at least an F6. I can vouch for the chain being bar taught and my climbing rope snubber, the full length of my boat, was the only thing proving elasticity. The snubber for my new boat is a bridle running down both side decks to stern cleats.
There is data on the load applied by a boat in reverse - good source is the YM test on propellers a few years ago. A boat and engine combination like Vyvs (and mine) with a 30hp engine achieves a pull in the region of 250-300kgs. Varies according the the prop, but his Bruntons, my Flexofold on my last boat and Featherstream on the current, all with 30hp achieve near the top end of that. A 3 blade fixed would be similar. Data on the loads in relation to wind speed for different kinds/sizes of boats you can get from a number of sources, principally the ABYC and directly from empirical data such as the Practical Sailor tests which show similar loads in the speed range 25-30 knots (F6/7).
 

westernman

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So can you advise, from all your experience what combination of chain to rode you think best. I have 60m of 10mm chain on a 50 foot cat (9 tonnes loaded) with a 32kg Rocna which so far has never moved an inch in any conditions. However, I have just spent a bit of time and money removing a 60 kg anchor platform from the front of the boat to replace with a 12kg aluminium ladder frame I built to save weight, so having over 100kg of chain up front of the boat does seem to leave room for further weight savings but I have always believed it to be safer than rode due to the extra weight. Reading some of the detailed posts on here seem to disprove that. So given there must be some chain at the deep end, what do you suggest for chain to rode out of my 60M? And given I always use a bridle on a cat should I go strong dyneema rode or stretchy polypropylene etc ?
On my boat I use all chain, but use a stretchy nylon bridle if the conditions look like they might warrant it. I attach this to the chain and then let out the chain until the bridle is taking the load, and then a couple of more metres, so the bridle can stretch before jerking on the chain.
I am not sure how a cat would react to having 10m of bridle. May be that is too long and it would tack from one side to the other the whole time.
 

Porthandbuoy

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Thanks gents. I'll have a look for these articles.

250~300 kgs is a pretty hefty load. My boat has a 50hp engine and a fixed 3-blade prop. Still learning with this boat and so far I've been a bit leary of digging in the anchor with all the horsepower at my disposal for fear of just ploughing up the seabed (Confession: I have a 35lb CQR).
To date I've gone to @2,500 rpm, which according to the graphs is @15hp using the propellor power curve. Only dragged once, and that was in heavy weed. Maybe I should be a bit more ballsy and give 'er some welly!
 

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