CAT C9's or Cummins QCS8.3?, Latestarter1, you about, or anybody, Help?

[Kawasaki]

Friends Forumites Countrymen
Lend me your Ears!
Again
So I posted a few weeks ago on here, ref the problems the CAT's seem to have had
So there were good replies as usual but no definitive replies
So I posted on here about a Good Friend who wants to purchase a vessel
So Said Mate has seen a couple or three vessels
One has the CA,C7's in it
One has the Cummins as Titled
My Friend has done the internet search, as we do
He is a busy person, still working etc
I am a part time busybody
He, however, in spite of working full time has found by way of the Internet, that the 'CATS' have a bit of a problem
He has also deduced that the Cummins of similar age are deemed to be a more reliable Product
Now, as I am his boaty 'expert' I need to advise
So this 'Apeal' is quite important
My 'reputation' could be at stake here Peeps!
So a more serious note
The Cat series of engines
, inc the C9's I mentioned do, from all accounts have and have had some real serious issuse
Mostly about the way there are designed to lubricate the Fuel injector type fitted, with some fairly disaterous reports about same
The Cummins QCS8.3 no History of similar Gremlins seems to be highlited on any Forai be ot boaty or Industrial or Automotive
Plus the Cummins has more HP and usess less fuel
Not that is a real issue because we know running a 40 odd foot Trawler type boat is goint to cost what it is going to cost!
The other worry with the boat which has the C9;s, there is an 8 year period where there is no invoices etc of proof that correct servicing has been performed
It appears that said records have been 'lost'
We do know 'Finnings' carried out the last service recently
You may ask
'Stuff the boat with the C9's in with and get the one with the 'better' engines'?
Thing is one is in the UK
Tother (with the Cummins) is in the Balearics
Needs a lift out to (will want cleaning off and antifouling) mainy to check props , shafts and very possibly anodes etc
Where as the UK boat, we know all that kinda thing is ok
Both have been viewed and the UK one we sea trialled a few weeks ago
Yep, all the above can be sorted and transport to the UK is what it's gonna cost at the end of the day
The main issue is this , from what we have researched there was definately an inbuilt problem with the C9's and Court cases etc were brought against CAT
CAT did 'mod' the engine but still it seems after that some motors still had disasters and eventually CAT abandoned the line
We all know if you 'punch in' online any Engine be it marine or not
Someone will have a 'tale' to tell
The worries are threefold realy
1 it seems the preventive 'mod' will cost roughly 10 K a motor
2 Even afterwards there is no garauntee the engines will be 'right'
3 Plus the downtime should any happen to the 'unmoded' motors in the UK boat
If we could get someone to really open up and prove one way or another that our concerns are unfounded that would be great
So far though that proof is nowhere to be seen
Hence My alert to have the Guru Himself, 'Latestarter1' on the Case
Or anyone!
Thanks in advance and sorry to put a kinda boring and long winded Post up
I promise iff and when my Pal does buy a vessel
I will post about the excersize and the Trip Back
With Brevity!

 

[BruceK]

Point of order.

1)I am a part time busybody

2)My 'reputation' could be at stake here Peeps!

3)I will post about the excersize and the Trip Back
With Brevity!

1)Make that Full Time Master Busybody

2) You have a reputation of being a pirate. How could it get worse?

3) How do you live with yourself ending a plea for help dangling that carrot which all know to be a blatant lie?

Further to that I cannot help you, would be reluctant to do so, I am not sorting out any more of your parking tickets and please stop bashing my pontoon! You're going to get me into trouble. And that fella from Deganwy in whose boat you gate crashed my anchorage spilling my gin, I hope you didn't tell him we're mates. A lot of the new comers run when they see me and I blame you for that!

 

[Kawasaki]

No arguments from this end!

 

[MrB]

PMSL

 

[Mr Googler]

Latestarter hasn’t been on since last year.....which is a real shame.

 

[Portofino]

The problem with internet search’s is you need to be able to filter .
Same with biomedical research , eg take milk should it be full fat or semi skinny etc .
Marine diesels are not different .
Presume theses are aged boats ?
So they are still running ?
What year and hrs ?
Then there’s the actual instal the builders bit , location of vents , drains , exhaust openings , fuel filtration, water ingress mitigation of said fuel systems etc etc .

What you are after I presume are generic personal to the brand serious issues like porous ( French ) CAT blocks , or widely different metals in the coolers ( bimetallic corrosion risk ) hidden hard to replace anodes ,
Weak raw water pumps etc etc .

MTU eg on some engines a metal impelled raw water pump gear driven .So on the face of it no rubber impeller issues or belt problems in stall ? .But a shaft seal that eventually leaks water back into the sump = disaster.Water and big end bearings = not good .
Where as conventional wisdom uses a buy in part ( Sherwood ) bolted on and driven via a belt , when the shaft seal goes it just starts to weep , drips in the bilge = rebuild as and when at your leisure .

Some buy in parts are faulty - batch faulty .Again the tinternet throws up chafe .
Take VW coil packs 10 years ago .Bosch part faulty batch gets in the line .
Eventually VW had to recall 100,000 and change out new ones .
But the relevant VW / Audi petrol engines are gold once that’s been done .

Bosch also at the teen of the century did a faulty batch of injectors that ended up in the MAN factories lines .
Hence the term “ Mangrenade “ so any (guess date ) 97 -99 MAN diesel still around that works would have had the updates / recalls done . Once again the engines are gold with proper faultless injectors .
How ever google the designated engine and Mr Google will have you running a mile .

Hence my Q on age and hrs , because if they are here and running ..........

Then there’s an added complexity with marine instals , load .
Yup if the instal is on the edge Hp wise and the boat run hard ( because the brochure said so) , then due to basically overloading , chronic overloading then they may knackered early .

More here
https://www.sbmar.com/

So what I,am saying is just a google search alone is meaningless there’s too many variables for anybody here to call which one of the two in question to go for .

 

[Kawasaki]

The problem with internet search’s is you need to be able to filter .
Same with biomedical research , eg take milk should it be full fat or semi skinny etc .
Marine diesels are not different .
Presume theses are aged boats ?
So they are still running ?
What year and hrs ?
Then there’s the actual instal the builders bit , location of vents , drains , exhaust openings , fuel filtration, water ingress mitigation of said fuel systems etc etc .

What you are after I presume are generic personal to the brand serious issues like porous ( French ) CAT blocks , or widely different metals in the coolers ( bimetallic corrosion risk ) hidden hard to replace anodes ,
Weak raw water pumps etc etc .

MTU eg on some engines a metal impelled raw water pump gear driven .So on the face of it no rubber impeller issues or belt problems in stall ? .But a shaft seal that eventually leaks water back into the sump = disaster.Water and big end bearings = not good .
Where as conventional wisdom uses a buy in part ( Sherwood ) bolted on and driven via a belt , when the shaft seal goes it just starts to weep , drips in the bilge = rebuild as and when at your leisure .

Some buy in parts are faulty - batch faulty .Again the tinternet throws up chafe .
Take VW coil packs 10 years ago .Bosch part faulty batch gets in the line .
Eventually VW had to recall 100,000 and change out new ones .
But the relevant VW / Audi petrol engines are gold once that’s been done .

Bosch also at the teen of the century did a faulty batch of injectors that ended up in the MAN factories lines .
Hence the term “ Mangrenade “ so any (guess date ) 97 -99 MAN diesel still around that works would have had the updates / recalls done . Once again the engines are gold with proper faultless injectors .
How ever google the designated engine and Mr Google will have you running a mile .

Hence my Q on age and hrs , because if they are here and running ..........

Then there’s an added complexity with marine instals , load .
Yup if the instal is on the edge Hp wise and the boat run hard ( because the brochure said so) , then due to basically overloading , chronic overloading then they may knackered early .

More here
https://www.sbmar.com/

So what I,am saying is just a google search alone is meaningless there’s too many variables for anybody here to call which one of the two in question to go for .

Firstly
What a great detailed reply, thanks for taking the time and trouble
Much appreciated
OK
The two boats are exactly the same Make and Model
The one with the C9 CAT was commisioned in 2006
The one with the Cummins 2008
C9CAT engines one has done 600 hours and the other 614 give or take
Cummins, both engines have done Circa 300
I won't mention the Make of Vessels
I don't want to spoil any owners chance of a Sale and I dont want 'Mar' the Make or run down a Broker etc
Ref 'Googling'
Well yes, that has been done
Only after a 'word of mouth' kinda tip off from an owner of the same make and engine
This led my friend speak to his CAT man (He has various plant and machinery used by His workforce) who knew about the problem area
This led to the internet search
Which led to some alarming reports
Admittedly 80% were automotive and 60% of those came from 'RV' Forums Stateside
We appreciate an RV usage is SO diferent to Marine usage but crikey it led to a Court Case
CAT had to pay out a lot of dollars to a lot of people
We have scoured many 'respected' Marine Forums
'Boat Diesel' being one
A member of that site reported that CAT recalled His vessel
Which was running perfectly at the time about 800 hours iirc
A new pump was fitted, 'Huewi, Huie, cant remember the spelling!
It seems the origionals ran with one bearing which if failing caused fillings / dross to enter the fuel injectors so you can imagine the consequences
The new two bearing pump was fitted and from then on all hell let loose
4 or 5 visits from CAT to resolve the matter and still no good
There is no doubt that fault can occur
But there is doubt that there could be a 'User Probem', especially in the RV Camp (I having against RV owners!) and other automotive enviroments
Any lack of correct servicing times and especially the incorrect oil being used in that type of system and one day 'Bobs Yer Uncle'
Finnings have been spoken to and know there were recalls and have offered to take oil samples etc and fit the new 'improved' two bearing pump
What we we found out today was very interesting
A 5 Year Warranty can be purchased, even on the used 600 hour engines
Obviously a full check etc, oil analysis, a seat trial to check temps etc etc would be arranged first to make sure the current pumps and all are performing properly
Details and prices etc are being organised
This left us today with a little less apprehension
Back to the internet!
Yes I know
Pick any engine etc, marine or otherwise and there is SO much to filter as you say
My engine mending days go back over half a century
Firstly as a hobby and then as a living
Motorcycles , racing and road
Cars similar, buses wagons outboards in boards outdrives, shaft drives, even model aircraft but not always in that order!!
Oh I forgot
Lawnmowers, strimmers and Wankel driven contraptions and not to mention jetskis
Sorry, I just did!!
Back to the 'Internet'!
A search by my Friend brought up an old YBW thread
He sent said to Me
Low and behold and knock me down with a feather and all that there
The Contributer of said Thread
Oh! the Title was
The death (or similar) of the CAT C7/C9
The parting comment
'CAT have gone from Hero to Zero'
The poster was a certain
'Latestarter1'
Now its out there for everybody to see so I have no qualms in mentioning this
I put our respected 'Guru's' Forum alias in this thread's Title for obvious reasons
I couldn't help it
We know He is well respected
Again for obvious reasons
There was no way He could pass through the filter!
Portofino
Thanks again
K

 

[BruceK]

My engine mending days go back over half a century
Firstly as a hobby and then as a living
Motorcycles , racing and road
Cars similar, buses wagons outboards in boards outdrives, shaft drives, even model aircraft but not always in that order!!
Oh I forgot
Lawnmowers, strimmers and Wankel driven contraptions and not to mention jetskis
Sorry, I just did!!

You forgot to mention you also wrote for Mills and Boon!

 

[Portofino]

Yep the Huei pumps with or without the mod seem a ticking time bomb .
If you have any reservations about outdrives and IPS from 1 st principles of of its just a matter of time dangling an AL case full of gears in the sea before the sea gets in , then surly contaminated oil with unfiltered metal will get in to the huei pump eventually.
More so if the filter OEM housing is not “ flat “ and any new ones too , compromising the gasket fit from clean to dirty oil

Have theses mods in this vid been done ? Presume you don’t know or ans is no ?

CAT started to subcontract out parts and basically lost it quality control wise .

-Porous blocks from a French foundry
-Charge air coolers corroding shedding water into the cylinders - ended with a law suit and eventually a payout .C32 mostly
- And this none flat oil cooler housings that leak internally out of sight .

There’s probably more .

Feels like the Cummins is a no brainer despite the hassle and expense of bringing the boat back .
.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=MzUojErZRyU