Cars now suffering from Diesel Bug?

[vyv_cox]

So pray tell me, what do the continentals do, having been forced to use ULSD (with Bio) for the past 10 or more years. Are their engines all seizing up, NO.

My Yanmar 3GM30F was bought and installed in Holland about 12 years ago. It has only ever run on white diesel and in 2000 hours plus has most definitely not seized. Until a couple of years or so ago red diesel was different from white in that it contained more sulphur but I believe that this is no longer the case. Red is now the same as white with the addition of the red marker dye. Some marinas reputedly have a version of red diesel without added FAME, but whether this is true or not I cannot say.

 

[duncan99210]

My Yanmar 3GM30F was bought and installed in Holland about 12 years ago. It has only ever run on white diesel and in 2000 hours plus has most definitely not seized. Until a couple of years or so ago red diesel was different from white in that it contained more sulphur but I believe that this is no longer the case. Red is now the same as white with the addition of the red marker dye. Some marinas reputedly have a version of red diesel without added FAME, but whether this is true or not I cannot say.

We've been running our Volvo MD2030 on continental white diesel for five years now, doing about 250 hours a year. Not a thing out place that can be attributed to anything other than fair wear and tear.

 

[NormanS]

My Yanmar 3GM30F was bought and installed in Holland about 12 years ago. It has only ever run on white diesel and in 2000 hours plus has most definitely not seized. Until a couple of years or so ago red diesel was different from white in that it contained more sulphur but I believe that this is no longer the case. Red is now the same as white with the addition of the red marker dye. Some marinas reputedly have a version of red diesel without added FAME, but whether this is true or not I cannot say.

The supplier where I get my fuel mainly supplies large ferries, fishing boats etc. His fuel still has a high sulphur content, and I know that it has no FAME. So maybe it's better for my engine? Unfortunately my Eber doesn't like it at all, and being a sensitive soul, craves expensive white diesel.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Thanks for posting that usefull bit of info. But it just leaves you thinking how some things are going all wrong. The fuel companies don't give a dam about the poor old user again. So conclusion... Petrol has gone so you cant keep it and diesel has gone so it clogs filters, How cheerfull! and you hear af people talking about progress.

This is nonsense that fuel companies 'don't give a dam'. They give a very big damn indeed and spend significant sums on petrol formulation and trying to establish a bigger market share by the quality of their product. If you ask Exxon, Shell or BP about deteriorating issues of their petrol they will bend over backwards to inform you of the facts around their products - they are terrified of poor quality issues damaging their brand name. I have never come across petrol that has turned to jelly in the few cans of petrol I have kicking around all year.

 

[Stork_III]

My Yanmar 3GM30F was bought and installed in Holland about 12 years ago. It has only ever run on white diesel and in 2000 hours plus has most definitely not seized. Until a couple of years or so ago red diesel was different from white in that it contained more sulphur but I believe that this is no longer the case. Red is now the same as white with the addition of the red marker dye. Some marinas reputedly have a version of red diesel without added FAME, but whether this is true or not I cannot say.

My marina (Shotley) has assured us, in writing, that the red for sale is FAME free, but may be low sulphur. Craft on Inland Waters must use low sulphur with FAME content, craft on waters classed as sea can use FAME free with higher sulphur.

From Shotley site Archive. http://www.shotleymarina.co.uk/red-diesel-supply/

 

[toad]

My marina (Shotley) has assured us, in writing, that the red for sale is FAME free, but may be low sulphur. Craft on Inland Waters must use low sulphur with FAME content, craft on waters classed as sea can use FAME free with higher sulphur.

From Shotley site Archive. http://www.shotleymarina.co.uk/red-diesel-supply/

Likewise Bradwell marina, as an aside I always put a drop of two stroke oil in my diesel van and land rover when I fill up at the pumps but then neither has a DPF.

 

[Avocet]

Only just found this thread. See http://www.ix35forum.co.uk/ There are a number of threads on the subject there: Loss of Power & Diesel - Winter 2013-2014 are the most "interesting" for those interested!
A small number of ix35 forumites have had power failures due to fuel filter blockages, apparently due to "waxed" fuel at low temperatures. One owner has had 5 or 6 failures, and has since sold his car as his only way of "solving the problem"! He apparently always bought his fuel from the same (Shell) filling station. You do wonder if it was diesel bug...
Statement from Hyundai UK:


EDIT: My 2.0CRDi ix35 has been unaffected - but fate will now inevitably decide otherwise!

There might be something in that. I had another motor manufacturer (who we do a lot of business with) call me to ask if we'd had any, because they had been made aware of a spate of similar incidents (generally down the East Coast).

 

[Avocet]

My Yanmar 3GM30F was bought and installed in Holland about 12 years ago. It has only ever run on white diesel and in 2000 hours plus has most definitely not seized. Until a couple of years or so ago red diesel was different from white in that it contained more sulphur but I believe that this is no longer the case. Red is now the same as white with the addition of the red marker dye. Some marinas reputedly have a version of red diesel without added FAME, but whether this is true or not I cannot say.

Avocet's BMW D12 has been run exclusively on white diesel for the last 20 years because we use so little fuel per season, I can't be bothered filling at the marina, I used to just chuck the odd gallon of road diesel in every now and then from a can.

 

[GrahamM376]

But petrol these days only has a useful life of about 2 months before it goes off, by which I mean it degrades and starts turning to jelly.

Where do you get this crazy information from? My petrol car in the UK stands for 9-10 months of the year unused while were sailing and has never had a problem, starts first time. Same applies to the lawnmower, strimmer and other occasionaly used petrol engined tools, as well as stored fuel in cans.

As for road diesel in boats, in common with hundreds of thousands of European boaters, I've been running on white road diesel for many years and never had a problem.

 

[sailorman]

Where do you get this crazy information from? My petrol car in the UK stands for 9-10 months of the year unused while were sailing and has never had a problem, starts first time. Same applies to the lawnmower, strimmer and other occasionaly used petrol engined tools, as well as stored fuel in cans.

As for road diesel in boats, in common with hundreds of thousands of European boaters, I've been running on white road diesel for many years and never had a problem.

100% agree. The English like to make problems, even where there are none

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

Over the years, my Volvo MD11C has been fed with all kinds of diesel oils from kerosene/paraffin to road diesel and bio-diesels of dubious origins. I have never noticed any difference. The only attention I pay is ensuring that the filters are very clean, to protect the engine.

 

[cowpat]

MyL/R. Disco.200 TDI is in a series 3.so has the tank that can be removed. It is clean but I still. Need to to replace the fuel filter every 5000 miles(annually).!!¡

 

[oldharry]

The High pressure injection pump is bolted to the engine sump area and the shaft that drives the pump pokes into the engine to be driven by a cog probably off the camshaft or something. The shaft oil seal is inside the injection pump. Unpressurised diesel fuel from the fuel filter is piped into a reservoir in the injection pump. This reservoir lubricates the shaft that passes through it on its way to the engine and therefore a pool of unpressurised diesel sits close to the oil seal. The engine side of the shaft is lubricated by engine oil I suppose. The shaft when rotating feeds diesel into the pump pistons then to the injectors.

The damaged oil seal allowed diesel fuel to exit the injection pump by dripping along the shaft from the unpressurised reservoir then into the engine sump diluting the engine oil.

It is impossible to tell when it is happening as it seeps in even when the engine is not running by syphoning the fuel in the filter over a few weeks. Diluted engine oil is doing its nasty thing when the engine is started. The only reason I noticed it on my boat was because I use a gravity fed day tank so 8 litres of diesel fuel disappeared in three days and entered the sump. The oil dipstick was useless because the diesel fuel mixed with engine oil was so thin it did not register on the dipstick.

I removed the engine simply because I had no idea how long the engine had been running with diluted engine oil. In my case 8 litres of diesel mixed with only 4 litres of engine oil spelled possibly big trouble in the future. I did not want to take the chance so the engine was scraped.

The engine ran quite well by the way at least for the few hours it took to get the anchor up in the morning. No doubt a long run would have seized the thing.

The site warning was from the Inland Waterways forum guru who warned that this will happen more often in the future because sulphur was no longer present in the diesel fuel used because road diesel was being used more often because of the Red Diesel restrictions. (Didn't understand that bit so pinch of salt eh).

Hope you understood that lot above.

Its very unlikrly that fuel could seep into the sumpe from the pump, rvrn on a BMC 1.5, where incidentaqlly the pump mounts quite high up on the block. The pump has its own fuel seals, and the drive shaft has an oil seal. The chances of both failing are very small. There is a good reason why you should check sump oil level carefully. Not just to ensure there is sufficient lube in the sump, but if the level is rising, it means fuel is getting in and diluting the oil. This would be immediately obvious even from minimal daily checks anyway. The most likely point for fuel to enter the sump is the low pressure lift pump, in which even a pinhole in the diaphragm will alllow fuel to leak through. In a gravity fed system this will be a constant trickle or drip.

Lack of lubricant in the fuel by the reduction of sulphur content would cause internal damage to the pump, injectors and possibly the valves (as in the removal of lead from petrol causing valve damage), but would not affect the wear or lubrication of the main engine components which never come in to contact with the fuel in the first place!

The HP pump seals that can be dmaged by petrol added to diesel are in common rail applications where an extreme pressure pump is filling the common rail reservoir, and maintaining the extreme pressures needed for the injectors. There are various seals in these and electronic injectors which are rapidly destroyed by even small amounts of petrol, and cost a bomb! It is only safe to add petorl if you still ruyn a mechanically injected engine.

The bug is always present in diesel, as it occurs naturally, but is rarely a problem with engines in regular use as the fuel is being stirred up and replenished frequently, so that it does not become a problem unlike many boats which may stand still and idle for weeks at a time, allowing the evil beasties plenty of time to make whoopee and take over the fuel/water interface in the tank!

 

[BurnitBlue]

Its very unlikrly that fuel could seep into the sumpe from the pump, rvrn on a BMC 1.5, where incidentaqlly the pump mounts quite high up on the block. The pump has its own fuel seals, and the drive shaft has an oil seal. The chances of both failing are very small. There is a good reason why you should check sump oil level carefully. Not just to ensure there is sufficient lube in the sump, but if the level is rising, it means fuel is getting in and diluting the oil. This would be immediately obvious even from minimal daily checks anyway. The most likely point for fuel to enter the sump is the low pressure lift pump, in which even a pinhole in the diaphragm will alllow fuel to leak through. In a gravity fed system this will be a constant trickle or drip.

Lack of lubricant in the fuel by the reduction of sulphur content would cause internal damage to the pump, injectors and possibly the valves (as in the removal of lead from petrol causing valve damage), but would not affect the wear or lubrication of the main engine components which never come in to contact with the fuel in the first place!

The HP pump seals that can be dmaged by petrol added to diesel are in common rail applications where an extreme pressure pump is filling the common rail reservoir, and maintaining the extreme pressures needed for the injectors. There are various seals in these and electronic injectors which are rapidly destroyed by even small amounts of petrol, and cost a bomb! It is only safe to add petorl if you still ruyn a mechanically injected engine.

The bug is always present in diesel, as it occurs naturally, but is rarely a problem with engines in regular use as the fuel is being stirred up and replenished frequently, so that it does not become a problem unlike many boats which may stand still and idle for weeks at a time, allowing the evil beasties plenty of time to make whoopee and take over the fuel/water interface in the tank!

The fuel lift pump was checked and replaced. The fuel still seeped into the sump. I even bypassed the fuel lift pump just to make sure, taking the supply direct from the tank to the fuel filter.

When I removed the injection pump it was obvious that it was the reason fuel got into the sump because the shaft was wobbly. I don't give a rats ass what in the injection pump caused the seepage it was certainly not the lift pump and it could not have been via the injectors because it also happened when the engine was switched off for some days where there was no pressure to the injectors.

EDIT to avoid another post. The diesel supply tank is a gravity feed day tank of about 10 litres so unpressurised fuel was constantly available at the injection pump

 

[VicMallows]

Where do you get this crazy information from?

Can only agree. I have never ever had any problem with either petrol or diesel however old.

There does however seem to be SOMETHING which causes SOME people problems with their fuel system. I wonder what our analysis will be 5 years hence?

 

[jerrytug]

I would not like to belittle those who have suffered engine problems which were genuinely caused by fuel type.
HOWEVER, human nature being what it is, (suggestible to the point of lunacy) some engine issues must surely have been blamed on fuel, which would have happened ANYWAY.

 

[GrahamM376]

Can only agree. I have never ever had any problem with either petrol or diesel however old.

There does however seem to be SOMETHING which causes SOME people problems with their fuel system. I wonder what our analysis will be 5 years hence?

I suspect it's not the fuel which is the problem so much as what happens to it after it's discharged from the tanker. Fuel pump tanks are often above ground these days so more likely to suffer from condensation and, how often do marinas clean them out. From there it's often left slopping around in a part full boat tank, stirring up whatever sediment is at the bottom for maybe 3-4 months over winter and could get more water added from a badly sealed deck filler. Occasional engine users are most likely more at risk than those who use their engines more as their fuel tends to be turned over more regularly.

 

[cowpat]

I suspect it's not the fuel which is the problem so much as what happens to it after it's discharged from the tanker. Fuel pump tanks are often above ground these days so more likely to suffer from condensation and, how often do marinas clean them out. From there it's often left slopping around in a part full boat tank, stirring up whatever sediment is at the bottom for maybe 3-4 months over winter and could get more water added from a badly sealed deck filler. Occasional engine users are most likely more at risk than those who use their engines more as their fuel tends to be turned over more regularly.

At last we get a definative reply. GrehamM376 thanks for that. Could I add please... If it is the storage that causes the problem we must conclude that if none of these addatives had been put in in the first place we would have clean and dare I say 'proper' fuel like we used to have. So why add??
I built my boat some 30 years ago and have two tanks, a 80gal and a 50gal. So if not used much there could be 3 year old fuel in them. No problems till last year when the brown/black sludge was found and fuel that would not egnite in the Perkins Galleypack. So it's only a recent thing. (Storage conditions not changed).

 

[NormanS]

My (several) boat's tanks have always had relatively small bases and drainable sumps. I have never had any fuel problems. Could these rwo facts be related?

 

[GrahamM376]

My (several) boat's tanks have always had relatively small bases and drainable sumps. I have never had any fuel problems. Could these rwo facts be related?

If you are able to drain water and sediment from the bottom of the tank, that should go far towards stopping the problem developing and it's a pity all tanks aren't designed this way.

As a matter of interest, I've not had to drain our water trap/sediment bowl in the 10 years I've had this boat but haven't a clue what's lurking just below the level of the pick-up pipe. As I can't get to my tank inspection cover without cutting a hole in the galley worktop, I've bought one of the electric drill pumps and will see if I can drop a pipe down through the hole drilled for the Eberspacher stand pipe.

Just been doing a Google and the quote below is taken from this site which has some useful info. http://www.purefueltechnologies.com/tags/mbg-microbiological-growth

Hydrocarbon fuels are hygroscopic - they absorb moisture (humidity and condensation) from the atmosphere. The longer fuel is stored, the greater the water content will become ...followed by MBG. MBG begins with water entering the fuel because the addition of water creates a viable environment for microbes to flourish. The presence of water with a carbon source (food, the fuel) supports microbiological life.

The moral is to do what we do with aircraft - fill the tank before leaving the boat to minimise water from condensation, not just before going out for a sail/motor. The new fuels are more hygroscopic than the old due to biofuel addition.