Cars now suffering from Diesel Bug?

[lynall]

Dont use petrol in any modern common rail diesel engine, not unless you like big big bills.
I often see very black and dirty diesel filters on the trucks we service, some so bad they have sucked the support part of the filter housing inwards, the truck seems to run fine regardless, so assume the filters are more than big enough.
Other thing to remember on modern diesel cars is the fuel filter change interval will be something silly like 40k, which for some people can take quite a few miles to achieve.
Not seen anything in truck diesel tanks apart from err diesel and the odd water droplet laying in the bottom.

 

[oldharry]

Petrol in a modern CR Merc will wreck the fuel system - £7k a go. (several years ago!)

 

[ffiill]

I once caught it from a rural filling station-problem is up here in Highlands is that there is a high turn over of fuel in the summer then it slows right down.
Luckily modern fuel tanks are plastic and usually dead easy to remove-did mine myself.
I dread my boat ever getting it as I carry 80 gallons in twin tanks totally inaccessible.

 

[blobby47]

Hi Folks

as for diesel bug, buy fame free fuel(no bio content), available at some marina's, or use correct additive, DO NOT use petrol/kerosene/paraffin as anti waxing agent in diesel engined applications.
In older days diesel fuels used sulphur for lubrication and was generously dosed with it, hence older mechanical diesel injection equipment coped very well with fore mentioned other fuels in small percentages, helping greatly with anti waxing at extreme cold temps.

Now all modern diesel fuels are low sulphur so reduced lubricity(probably have some thing else added) and petrol/kero/paraffin have no lubricity hence expensive failures of high pressure diesel injection equipment if used to day, down to lack of lubrication ,,so again use correct additive's
cheers bob

 

[cowpat]

FAME?

Hi Folks

as for diesel bug, buy fame free fuel(no bio content), available at some marina's, or use correct additive, DO NOT use petrol/kerosene/paraffin as anti waxing agent in diesel engined applications.
In older days diesel fuels used sulphur for lubrication and was generously dosed with it, hence older mechanical diesel injection equipment coped very well with fore mentioned other fuels in small percentages, helping greatly with anti waxing at extreme cold temps.

Now all modern diesel fuels are low sulphur so reduced lubricity(probably have some thing else added) and petrol/kero/paraffin have no lubricity hence expensive failures of high pressure diesel injection equipment if used to day, down to lack of lubrication ,,so again use correct additive's
cheers bob

On road filling stations I am told that all diesel fuel contains FAME or as we call it, (fatty acid monkey excrement) So as you say avoid it, but you can't. I find that my Land Rover fuel filter needs replacing annualy as it becomes clogged with a brown sludge.

 

[blobby47]

Hi Folks

I am reliably informed that the bug thrives on water in fuel,so maybe draining water from filters will minimise this.cheers bob

 

[CAPTAIN FANTASTIC]

7 Celsius??? that's hot!!! and rarely seen (just S of Stonehaven) between mid November and mid April. I have never resorted to adding petrol yet, despite using diesel since about 2001. I think if you have plenty of fuel through the system, and are using the vehicle it is entirely less of an issue. Leave it un used for weeks - well you might have some problems. So I haven't seen bug -and don't want to either, but the introduction of bio into diesel is a concern. And more so in boats where fuel lies about for longer.

Graeme

I missed out the minus (-) it should read -7 degrees C. I was easy to fix, just take off the filter by the mechanical lift pump and clean out; however, very inconvenient especially at low temperatures first think in the morning.

 

[charles_reed]

Adding petrol to diesel in extreme winter conditions helps to avoid 'waxing' but AFAIK doesn't help with bugging.

My understanding from the instructions I've read.

 

[AngusMcDoon]

My diesel car is a bit of a bug. Does that help?

 

[jimi]

http://www.ybw.com/forums/archive/index.php/t-48570.html

my source was a research scientist in a marine fuel lab

 

[GrahamHR]

That's OK as long as you keep using them both regularly.
But petrol these days only has a useful life of about 2 months before it goes off, by which I mean it degrades and starts turning to jelly.
As with diesel, modern petrol also has bioethanol added, so it's also become hygroscopic, which is a total PITA for all owners of classic cars because of the consequent corrosion caused to the bottom of petrol tanks. (Not a problem in modern cars with plastic tanks).

.

Strange that, I've had V8 petrol powered boats since 2001. They get serviced/ winterized usually in November and they have all started " first turn of the key" some 4 months later when they were wakened up from hibernation. Admittedly, they have all been EFI with no chance of evaporation in the fuel system like there is with carbs.This year was no different, they don'r seem to have ever suffered from petrol degenerating into a gel.

I have kept the (plastic) fuel tanks 100% full though over the Winters, so the area of petrol exposed to the atmosphere and it's moisture has been very small.

 

[cowpat]

And we all suffer.

That's OK as long as you keep using them both regularly.
But petrol these days only has a useful life of about 2 months before it goes off, by which I mean it degrades and starts turning to jelly.
As with diesel, modern petrol also has bioethanol added, so it's also become hygroscopic, which is a total PITA for all owners of classic cars because of the consequent corrosion caused to the bottom of petrol tanks. (Not a problem in modern cars with plastic tanks).

Diesel has a much longer shelf life than petrol, but is prone to getting the bug. Swings and roundabouts...

Edit: I suspect the cause of the problems in the OP's post is bug growing in diesel cars whose owners use them infrequently.
No need to panic for the everyday driver; but the occasional once-a-week-down-to-the-shops-and-back driver I would deem at high risk, just as much as a boat owner.
Bug risk is as much about fuel turnover as anything else.

Thanks for posting that usefull bit of info. But it just leaves you thinking how some things are going all wrong. The fuel companies don't give a dam about the poor old user again. So conclusion... Petrol has gone so you cant keep it and diesel has gone so it clogs filters, How cheerfull! and you hear af people talking about progress.

 

[A1Sailor]

Hyundai ix35 - fuel filter problems

Only just found this thread. See http://www.ix35forum.co.uk/ There are a number of threads on the subject there: Loss of Power & Diesel - Winter 2013-2014 are the most "interesting" for those interested!
A small number of ix35 forumites have had power failures due to fuel filter blockages, apparently due to "waxed" fuel at low temperatures. One owner has had 5 or 6 failures, and has since sold his car as his only way of "solving the problem"! He apparently always bought his fuel from the same (Shell) filling station. You do wonder if it was diesel bug...
Statement from Hyundai UK:

As you are aware Hyundai Motor UK Ltd has been part of a working group regarding this. The reason for working with other manufactures and fuel companies is to understand the root cause of this, especially as no manufacturing defect has ever been present.

All UK fuel, including diesel, has to conform to British standards s as set out to all UK fuel suppliers under BSEN142104. This includes the blended FAME content, which is currently limited to a maximum of 7%. The SMG element in the FAME blend was limited to 65 mg per litre, but there were no strict measures in place to confirm this. During 2012 the UK was the only country that used this specification of diesel, rather than changing to a new specification of diesel used by the rest of Europe.

The winter diesel that will be within the UK filling stations (around mid November) will be with the new European specification and the revised levels of SMG’s and are down to 55mg per litre.

Therefore, from our position, this is still not a manufacturing defect. A total of 34 other manufacturers in total have been affected. The fuel filter is designed to do what it s has to do and by this we mean filtering out particles in the fuel.

However, I can also let you know that we are going to continue working as part of this group and our dealership network will be requesting from our customers who experience the same issue this year some information such as, which fuel station did they fill up at, the brand and a copy of the fuel receipt. This will then be given to our technical team who will report back to the working group.

EDIT: My 2.0CRDi ix35 has been unaffected - but fate will now inevitably decide otherwise!

 

[BurnitBlue]

Hi Folks

as for diesel bug, buy fame free fuel(no bio content), available at some marina's, or use correct additive, DO NOT use petrol/kerosene/paraffin as anti waxing agent in diesel engined applications.
In older days diesel fuels used sulphur for lubrication and was generously dosed with it, hence older mechanical diesel injection equipment coped very well with fore mentioned other fuels in small percentages, helping greatly with anti waxing at extreme cold temps.

Now all modern diesel fuels are low sulphur so reduced lubricity(probably have some thing else added) and petrol/kero/paraffin have no lubricity hence expensive failures of high pressure diesel injection equipment if used to day, down to lack of lubrication ,,so again use correct additive's
cheers bob

This (lack of lubricant sulphur) was the reason my Thorneycroft T90 died. The internet sites that used diesel engines a lot (waterways for instance) advised and warned that the replacement of lubricant with eco additives (7% allowed) would destroy high pressure pump seals dumping diesel fuel into the sump and diluting the engine oil. Bingo ... exactly what happened to mine.

 

[jerrytug]

This (lack of lubricant sulphur) was the reason my Thorneycroft T90 died. The internet sites that used diesel engines a lot (waterways for instance) advised and warned that the replacement of lubricant with eco additives (7% allowed) would destroy high pressure pump seals dumping diesel fuel into the sump and diluting the engine oil. Bingo ... exactly what happened to mine.

That's interesting. They are BMC 1.5s aren't they? I'm trying to visualize where those "high pressure pump seals" would be, to do that. Could you expand, if you have time? Thanks very much Jerry

 

[Daydream believer]

my source was a research scientist in a marine fuel lab

Wouldn't take their word for it
They all ride bikes

 

[BurnitBlue]

That's interesting. They are BMC 1.5s aren't they? I'm trying to visualize where those "high pressure pump seals" would be, to do that. Could you expand, if you have time? Thanks very much Jerry

The High pressure injection pump is bolted to the engine sump area and the shaft that drives the pump pokes into the engine to be driven by a cog probably off the camshaft or something. The shaft oil seal is inside the injection pump. Unpressurised diesel fuel from the fuel filter is piped into a reservoir in the injection pump. This reservoir lubricates the shaft that passes through it on its way to the engine and therefore a pool of unpressurised diesel sits close to the oil seal. The engine side of the shaft is lubricated by engine oil I suppose. The shaft when rotating feeds diesel into the pump pistons then to the injectors.

The damaged oil seal allowed diesel fuel to exit the injection pump by dripping along the shaft from the unpressurised reservoir then into the engine sump diluting the engine oil.

It is impossible to tell when it is happening as it seeps in even when the engine is not running by syphoning the fuel in the filter over a few weeks. Diluted engine oil is doing its nasty thing when the engine is started. The only reason I noticed it on my boat was because I use a gravity fed day tank so 8 litres of diesel fuel disappeared in three days and entered the sump. The oil dipstick was useless because the diesel fuel mixed with engine oil was so thin it did not register on the dipstick.

I removed the engine simply because I had no idea how long the engine had been running with diluted engine oil. In my case 8 litres of diesel mixed with only 4 litres of engine oil spelled possibly big trouble in the future. I did not want to take the chance so the engine was scraped.

The engine ran quite well by the way at least for the few hours it took to get the anchor up in the morning. No doubt a long run would have seized the thing.

The site warning was from the Inland Waterways forum guru who warned that this will happen more often in the future because sulphur was no longer present in the diesel fuel used because road diesel was being used more often because of the Red Diesel restrictions. (Didn't understand that bit so pinch of salt eh).

Hope you understood that lot above.

 

[onesea]

TThe site warning was from the Inland Waterways forum guru who warned that this will happen more often in the future because sulphur was no longer present in the diesel fuel used because road diesel was being used more often because of the Red Diesel restrictions. (Didn't understand that bit so pinch of salt eh).

I know its a separate debate but...

I have been running my engine (Yanmar GM20) on White diesel in the off chance I end up in one of those silly countries. The other week I double checked my fuel cans and in the bottom of the locker whilst topping up I found a old can it was red as I poured it in. It looked like diesel and smelt like diesel, the next can I through in was fresh regular diesel it looked more like water!

Yup the engine runs on both but the red diesel looked like it would run better! No science in it and I will carry on using white with additive to try and avoid the bug...

 

[lynall]

The High pressure injection pump is bolted to the engine sump area and the shaft that drives the pump pokes into the engine to be driven by a cog probably off the camshaft or something. The shaft oil seal is inside the injection pump. Unpressurised diesel fuel from the fuel filter is piped into a reservoir in the injection pump. This reservoir lubricates the shaft that passes through it on its way to the engine and therefore a pool of unpressurised diesel sits close to the oil seal. The engine side of the shaft is lubricated by engine oil I suppose. The shaft when rotating feeds diesel into the pump pistons then to the injectors.

The damaged oil seal allowed diesel fuel to exit the injection pump by dripping along the shaft from the unpressurised reservoir then into the engine sump diluting the engine oil.

It is impossible to tell when it is happening as it seeps in even when the engine is not running by syphoning the fuel in the filter over a few weeks. Diluted engine oil is doing its nasty thing when the engine is started. The only reason I noticed it on my boat was because I use a gravity fed day tank so 8 litres of diesel fuel disappeared in three days and entered the sump. The oil dipstick was useless because the diesel fuel mixed with engine oil was so thin it did not register on the dipstick.

I removed the engine simply because I had no idea how long the engine had been running with diluted engine oil. In my case 8 litres of diesel mixed with only 4 litres of engine oil spelled possibly big trouble in the future. I did not want to take the chance so the engine was scraped.

The engine ran quite well by the way at least for the few hours it took to get the anchor up in the morning. No doubt a long run would have seized the thing.

The site warning was from the Inland Waterways forum guru who warned that this will happen more often in the future because sulphur was no longer present in the diesel fuel used because road diesel was being used more often because of the Red Diesel restrictions. (Didn't understand that bit so pinch of salt eh).

Hope you understood that lot above.

Thats a common problem with the mitsubishi pajero/shogun diesel engine, cure is new inj pump seal about 20 quid, but quite a lot of work the change it.

 

[sailorman]

The High pressure injection pump is bolted to the engine sump area and the shaft that drives the pump pokes into the engine to be driven by a cog probably off the camshaft or something. The shaft oil seal is inside the injection pump. Unpressurised diesel fuel from the fuel filter is piped into a reservoir in the injection pump. This reservoir lubricates the shaft that passes through it on its way to the engine and therefore a pool of unpressurised diesel sits close to the oil seal. The engine side of the shaft is lubricated by engine oil I suppose. The shaft when rotating feeds diesel into the pump pistons then to the injectors.

The damaged oil seal allowed diesel fuel to exit the injection pump by dripping along the shaft from the unpressurised reservoir then into the engine sump diluting the engine oil.

It is impossible to tell when it is happening as it seeps in even when the engine is not running by syphoning the fuel in the filter over a few weeks. Diluted engine oil is doing its nasty thing when the engine is started. The only reason I noticed it on my boat was because I use a gravity fed day tank so 8 litres of diesel fuel disappeared in three days and entered the sump. The oil dipstick was useless because the diesel fuel mixed with engine oil was so thin it did not register on the dipstick.

I removed the engine simply because I had no idea how long the engine had been running with diluted engine oil. In my case 8 litres of diesel mixed with only 4 litres of engine oil spelled possibly big trouble in the future. I did not want to take the chance so the engine was scraped.

The engine ran quite well by the way at least for the few hours it took to get the anchor up in the morning. No doubt a long run would have seized the thing.

The site warning was from the Inland Waterways forum guru who warned that this will happen more often in the future because sulphur was no longer present in the diesel fuel used because road diesel was being used more often because of the Red Diesel restrictions. (Didn't understand that bit so pinch of salt eh).

Hope you understood that lot above.

So pray tell me, what do the continentals do, having been forced to use ULSD (with Bio) for the past 10 or more years. Are their engines all seizing up, NO.