Carefull as yer go lads, an innocent stupid mistake ????

[onesea]

All of that applies to drunk drivers who kill family members. Should they be immune from prosecution? Serious question.

I have some sympathy for "s/he's suffered enough" as a principal in minor matters, but I don't think it should be a blanket thing: I think there are cases where the negligence is so great that a prosecution and, if proved, a conviction, are reasonable.

Every year I supervise teams of unpaid volunteers who take responsibility for looking after other people's children. I expect the same high standards of responsibility from them as I would from paid professionals and if they or I were grossly negligent I would not look to our unpaid status as a get-out card.

Does that mean as an amateur to take another person sailing I have to be qualified and have my boat to coded standards? Similar to the same high standards of a professional? or risk getting sent to jail?

I am not saying its a blanket get out of jail card. I am asking what it's going to achieve?

 

[Lakesailor]

Go on then. Install a dodgy gas boiler in a flat, kill a couple of tenants and then claim that as an amateur you should be immune from prosecution.

A particularly vacuous reply. I think we all know that gas boilers are out of bounds legally. However if the law were to require everyone working on an internal combustion engine confined within a boat to be qualified then we will all be shagged.

 

[JumbleDuck]

Does that mean as an amateur to take another person sailing I have to be qualified and have my boat to coded standards? Similar to the same high standards of a professional? or risk getting sent to jail?

I mentioned that before. If you are taking friends and family sailing then no, you don't need these things and nor should you. Your friends and family know what you're like - they know if you're a risk taker, if you're well organised, if you're good at looking after your stuff and so on.

If you start taking strangers sailing for money then it's a completely different matter. They don't know you and they can't assess you fully before placing their lives in your hands. It's reasonable, I think, that in those circumstances both boat and skipper should meet some standards.

However, that doesn't absolve you from all responsibility even with friends and family. If you were to behave in a grossly negligent way, leading to the injury or death of one of your crew, I would expect you (and in such circumstances I would expect me) to be open to legal challenge. It's probably right that the bar for prosecution should be higher for amateurs than for professionals, but it should still be possible to reach it in serious cases.

 

[JumbleDuck]

A particularly vacuous reply. I think we all know that gas boilers are out of bounds legally.

They are not, actually. If there is no payment involved then competence is required, not qualification.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

From the guy's company website;

Preston Energi, we are an Installation and Maintenance Company, specialising in commercial and domestic building services based in Preston. Preston Energi can provide Gas Safe registered Engineers, Qualified Catering Equipment Installers, Plumbers, Joiners, Jetters and Ground workers to provide services to our clients nationally.

We work together with our clients to ensure the right systems are installed and maintained in facilities varying from bars, public houses, restaurants, retail developments, care homes, nurseries, schools and domestic homes.

Our technical expertise includes heating, plumbing, catering and building maintenance providing the capability for a turnkey service to all of our clients.

We also provide a planned preventative maintenance and 24 hour emergency call out service to our clients. Over the recent years we have adapted our business to cover a wider range of services which include Energy Performance Certificates, PAT Testing and Drain Jetting.

Central Heating Installations
Gas Boiler Servicing/Maintenance
Landlords Safety Certificates
Catering Equipment Installation
Catering Equipment Servicing/Maintenance
PAT Testing
Joinery
Groundwork's
Drain Jetting
Energy Performance Certificates
24 Hour Emergency Callout Service
Commercial and Domestic

 

[onesea]

I mentioned that before. If you are taking friends and family sailing then no, you don't need these things and nor should you. Your friends and family know what you're like - they know if you're a risk taker, if you're well organised, if you're good at looking after your stuff and so on.

If you start taking strangers sailing for money then it's a completely different matter. They don't know you and they can't assess you fully before placing their lives in your hands. It's reasonable, I think, that in those circumstances both boat and skipper should meet some standards.

However, that doesn't absolve you from all responsibility even with friends and family. If you were to behave in a grossly negligent way, leading to the injury or death of one of your crew, I would expect you (and in such circumstances I would expect me) to be open to legal challenge. It's probably right that the bar for prosecution should be higher for amateurs than for professionals, but it should still be possible to reach it in serious cases.

I am not going to argue I agree with what your saying, it is just what height that bar should be set at.

In this case unless there is something we do not know, I will ask again what is prosecution going to achieve?

 

[JumbleDuck]

I am not going to argue I agree with what your saying, it is just what height that bar should be set at.

You can see the current CPS guidelines for involuntary manslaughter, including gross negligence, at

http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/h_to_k/homicide_murder_and_manslaughter/#involuntary

In this case unless there is something we do not know, I will ask again what is prosecution going to achieve?

It will establish whether any negligence in this case exceeded the bar for manslaughter.

 

[Searush]

And that in turn will make it harder for the average Joe to work on his own boat or take mates & family out for a jolly.

If what this guy did was so criminally negligent that everyone ought to be aware, are the dead wife & daughter equally negligent? Or do you believe that wimmin can't understand engines?

On another point, owning and running a company does not necessarily imply a good knowledge of what the company does. In my limited experience, owners & top managers have little knowledge of their own companies' products & services. Perhaps if he had had compression joints handy or a more draughty canopy, they would all have been alive today.

I see no benefit to anyone, past or future, who will benefit from criminal proceedings except the lawyers that argue the toss.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Whatever the result of the trial it's unlikely that it will change the law in any way. At most it might remind people of the need to take care but we need to wait and see what actually happens. Beyond that, I think he has been charged so, strictly speaking, the whole matter is now sub judice.

 

[jordanbasset]

I am absolutely certain he is feeling bad that his partner and her daugther died. Also sure the parents/grandparents of the woman and child who died are also feeling bad. Also would imagine the father of the girl who died is feeling bad. Their wider family and friends will be very upset to.
I would imagine they all want answers to why it happened, hopefully the court case will give them some of these. Either way it is a terrible situation for all concerned, but as to whether any one was too blame, that is for a court to decide.

 

[Mark G]

Perhaps if he had had compression joints handy or a more draughty canopy, they would all have been alive today.

The MAIB report states that the carbon monoxide had penetrated gaps in the internal bulkhead and entered the aft cabin where the woman and daughter were asleep. RCD requirements for engine compartments require the bulkheads to be sealed so that toxic fumes can not enter accommodation spaces. Perhaps if the bulkhead was adequately sealed, they would have been alive today. I realise that this is not the final report and would expect that the MAIB will investigate whether or not the bulkhead met RCD requirements. If it did not, then this poor chap may well have a defence.

 

[JumbleDuck]

And that in turn will make it harder for the average Joe to work on his own boat or take mates & family out for a jolly.

Where potential CO poisoning is concerned, it ought to be a bit hard.

If what this guy did was so criminally negligent that everyone ought to be aware, are the dead wife & daughter equally negligent? Or do you believe that wimmin can't understand engines?

I have seen no suggestion that his partner or her daughter had anything to do with the installation of the generator. Have you?

I see no benefit to anyone, past or future, who will benefit from criminal proceedings except the lawyers that argue the toss.

Do you see any benefit to prosecuting drunk drivers who kill members of their family?

I would imagine they all want answers to why it happened, hopefully the court case will give them some of these. Either way it is a terrible situation for all concerned, but as to whether any one was too blame, that is for a court to decide.

Absolutely.

 

[Lakesailor]

You can see the current CPS guidelines for involuntary manslaughter, including gross negligence, at

Ah yes. CPS. Those are the bunch who have been tasked with bringing forward all these historical sex offence cases, seemingly without much chance of success in many instances.
The CPS are the monkeys who jump to the organ grinder's commands.
See my post regarding the woman who broke down (her own fault) in a cycle lane and was charged with dangerous driving when an apparently blind cyclist ran into her stationary vehicle

 

[Searush]

The MAIB report states that the carbon monoxide had penetrated gaps in the internal bulkhead and entered the aft cabin where the woman and daughter were asleep. RCD requirements for engine compartments require the bulkheads to be sealed so that toxic fumes can not enter accommodation spaces. Perhaps if the bulkhead was adequately sealed, they would have been alive today. I realise that this is not the final report and would expect that the MAIB will investigate whether or not the bulkhead met RCD requirements. If it did not, then this poor chap may well have a defence.

That's interesting, thank you, but I find it hard to understand why anyone would run a genny while his family were trying to sleep. I get annoyed if a boat nearby on the moorings is running a genny or engine after 9pm because it makes it harder for others to get some sleep.

 

[Lakesailor]

Floating cottage syndrome.

 

[Sandgrounder]

Ah yes. CPS. Those are the bunch who have been tasked with bringing forward all these historical sex offence cases, seemingly without much chance of success in many instances.
The CPS are the monkeys who jump to the organ grinder's commands.
See my post regarding the woman who broke down (her own fault) in a cycle lane and was charged with dangerous driving when an apparently blind cyclist ran into her stationary vehicle

See also Stuart Hall - how many is it he has pleaded guilty to - 20 something? The CPS are not generally stupid merely rational beings doing a difficult job where whatever you do you will offend someone.

It seems in this case that the shortcomings of the installation, given the presumed knowledge of the owner/ installer, were so egregious that prosecution is merited. The difficuly for many on this forum, whenever a controversial prosecution arises, is that each and every case must be judged on its own merits. Presumably they would prefer great general rules which would allow no subtlety and would end in greater injustice over time

 

[Lakesailor]

But it has been highlighted that the CPS have been tasked with bringing these historical case to court. Some never had any chance of succeeding.
It's also particuarly noticeable how they are running them consecutively to keep the issue alive in the public's mind.
It's just a pity the authorities weren't as assiduous when Jimmy Saville and Cyril Smith et al were at large.

 

[Searush]

But it has been highlighted that the CPS have been tasked with bringing these historical case to court. Some never had any chance of succeeding.
It's also particuarly noticeable how they are running them consecutively to keep the issue alive in the public's mind.
It's just a pity the authorities weren't as assiduous when Jimmy Saville and Cyril Smith et al were at large.

I wouldn't be that surprised if there were still active predators out there with their asses being covered by the authorities today. Historic attacks may help keep the spotlight off current activities.