Cardinal Buoy System

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asteven221

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What's the logic of this system? I know what it means in the sense "safe water to the south" etc.... but would it not be more logical to have "hazard to the south" etc? They look like a recipe for a disaster for the unwary. If I see one that is unknown to me, I have no option other than to go to the chart to find out what the proper situation is. They make little or no sense to me and being a cautious soul I would always double check the chart/chartplotter. Sorry if I am being dim. I will be delighted to get a lesson from fellow forumites.
 
In simple terms (I have too!) Pass a 'South' one to the South a 'North' to the North etc.
Before We go any further, does that make sense to You?
 
Think of a hazard surrounded by four cardinal bouys. On the chart, the North Cardinal will be to the north of the hazard, the South Cardinal to the south etc. Makes perfect sense.
 
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What's the logic of this system?

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If it were as you suggest, there would be a similar post asking exactly the same question /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

As with many things in life, "We are where we are", and it aint gonna change.

BTW, had some great weeks in Douglas and Port St. Mary over the years... usually around Wimbledon time.
 
When I first started sailing, someone said " they tell you what you want to know". When teaching my kids and girlfriend about cardinals I have told them to imagine the bouy saying, "I am to south, west, north or east of the danger". Works for me!
Allan
 
Yes I totally understand that. I have read the books, but I still don't get the logic. Say there is a headland, with a hidden reef and a South Cardinal at the end of the south extremity. Without referring to the chart, that would as you say suggest go South of the buoy. However it doesn't say that you can't go to the east or west of it, which you often can perfectly okay. Sometimes you can't. That's the problem - its ambiguous - or it is to me! Say for example there was hazard on the east side of the buoy in addition to the one to the north. Then say, you were on a parallel course to the land (on the east side) and you are going south to pass around the buoy to then go west, you could hit the hazard before you get to the south cardinal buoy. Alternatively you could give it a very wide berth and travel east and then south (until you pass the buoy) and then turn west, when in fact there was no need as there isn't any hazards. Hopefully you can follow what I am trying to say in my example! Sailormans explanation makes sense to me, but it wouldn't really solve the dilemma in my example.
 
Nice logical shapes, colours & lights - well sort of, north & south anyway.

North & south shapes point to the safe water. West, sort of looks like a W on it's side. East is the other one.

Sand's a hazzard & is yellow. So, north is black over yellow. On a chart, th enice safe black water is above the nasty yellow sand. South's the oposite. If you look at the shapes, the colours for east & west follow. North - both shapes point up & the colours are black over white. So west with both shapes pointing together gives yellow-black-yellow. East is black-yellow-black.

Lights are points of the clock - 12 = white flashing. East is at 3 o'clock so 3 flashes. South is at 6 so 6 flashes plus one long. West is at 9 so 9 flashes.
 
In real terms, you would rarely come across a South Cardinal buoy without expecting it, so you would know what was around it.

If, by chance, you did come across one unexpectedly, you do what makes most sense, and this depends on your course, your speed, and where it is in relation to you.

You would have the same difficulties even if it were called something else.
 
If you were to come through to the Firth of Forth you could practice. We have half a dozen cardinal marks within a few miles used in a variety of contexts to mark various rocks and shoals. In one area there are 3 more or less in line, at about half mile intervals; there is a W cardinal at Pallas Rock which is off the W side of Inchkeith island, then an E cardinal marking the E end of Gunnet Ledge, a large shoal rock, and another W cardinal at the W end of same. Cardinals are used here to avoid confusion with the buoyage marking channels running E/W to N and S of these hazards. Similarly at the W end of Inchcolm island there's a W cardinal marking the extremity of a reef extendind W from the island. In this case there are also E/W channels buoyed with lateral marks close to N and S so the use of cardinal marks reduces the possibility of confusion. They are most often used in this way, to avoid confusion with nearby lateral marks.

Hope that helps.
 
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Say for example there was hazard on the east side of the buoy

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Then there'd be an E cardinal as well! /forums/images/graemlins/ooo.gif
 
What you really seem to be suggesting is that bouyage should work like a kerb around the coast as one finds on inland roads, this would solve the problem. However, since they will never exist, the cardinal bouyage system is just one of the many means of identifying offshore dangers. If used on their own, yes, they will be as you say "a recipe for disaster". Other navigational aids should always be used; good methods of finding ones estimated position plus suitable charts, or more likely in today's age - GPS, chartplotters and all the other electronic wizardry. Any one navigating by looking solely at bouys is likely to be in serious trouble.
 
1. You would normally refer to the Chart .
2. 'You can/or cannot got to the East of it or whatever.
3. A Cardinal if it is 'Isolated' ie nothing marking anything else in proximity suggests You do what it says and that's it.
4. Headlands etc as per Your scenario are usually marked with other bouys.
Lateral marks etc.
Bouyage is simple.
There are the 4 Cardinals.
Laterals, ie the Red and Green uns which work from 'Entry' (iala a) don't worry about that fer now.
Someone will mention it though!
Yeller uns which are 'Special Marks' for info only.
Not to go left or right of always.
New yellow and blue un which is for 'New Wrecks' kinda temporary till the Boy bouys sort it.

There is a red and white one, which is a 'Safe Water' mark.
Often used as a 'Fairway Bouy' ie, 'here's the beggining of the Channel shipmate!'

Yer Cardinals all flash white.
Yer red uns flash Red!
Dead handy that is!
Greens flash green.

If you see a Cardinal on the headland or where ever your query was--- it will be supported by one of the other bouys to guide you through or pass the hazard.
 
Sorry everyone for wasting your time. I agree with everyone and know and understand what you are all saying, but I was just trying to get a point across and failed completely! Obviously a pointless post by me on this ocassion, given that I actually do understand the Cardinal system! I just think it's flawed, that's all but heyho we are where we are. Thanks for taking time to respond though and I will do better next time!
 
Sorry, wasn't trying to teach Grannie to suck eggs as it were.
A seasoned and well known Forumite posed this question to Me a few weeks ago.
Ref He was 'confused' by Cardinals in a certain Harbour.

As others have Posted.
Taint a road map.
And in some places there are lots together, which tends to confuse initially.
Having read KenMcCulloch's post-- me heads reeling! /forums/images/graemlins/smirk.gif
 
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Sorry everyone for wasting your time. I agree with everyone and know and understand what you are all saying, but I was just trying to get a point across and failed completely! Obviously a pointless post by me on this ocassion, given that I actually do understand the Cardinal system! I just think it's flawed, that's all but heyho we are where we are. Thanks for taking time to respond though and I will do better next time!

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No need to be apologetic - you're view is as valid as anyone else's. Personally I find the cardinal system excellent and very clear but like many things in life, it depends on the way your mind works. For example - I can't understand modern art for the life of me.

Just go on the basis that a south cardinal is to the south of the obstruction and you should pass to the south of it. Just a convention - like red buoys to port when returning to harbour.
 
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Sorry everyone for wasting your time.

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In my experience, very few questions here are a waste of time. Someone will have read the thread and it will have cleared a few things up for them. Others may have had the same thoughts as you, but just didnt ask.
 
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Sorry everyone for wasting your time. I agree with everyone and know and understand what you are all saying, but I was just trying to get a point across and failed completely! Obviously a pointless post by me on this occasions

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Not a waste of time, its a reasonable question. But I don't think you have received a proper answer yet.

Best understood if you view buoyage as having two categories.

1 - Red/Green channel markers = stay within the safe zone marked by an outer boundary.
2 - Cardinal buoys = stay outside the danger area marked by one or more cardinals.

Both systems tell you the navigator how to act, not the reason why the buoy exists.
 
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