Cardiff Bay Yacht Club Fined £40,000 and £14,400 costs!

[Jamesuk]

It's quite outrageous, isn't it, that an organisation should be expected to compensate a young woman left with serious brain damage by their incompetence?

Yes I agree.

Judging by many safety boats out there I would have said the driver had better visibility at night without navigation lights than with. I have been on so many safety craft that give awful glare when the lights are on which destroys nigh vision. The classic is when they install them on the centre console when the box A frame has not been ticked when the boat was built.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

The idea of nav lights is that they enable others to see you. Not having them on because they affect night vision just means that the lights need to be modified. In this case the drivers night vision certainly wasn't affected by having lights on...... the accident may not have happened if the lights had been on.

 

[Sgeir]

Wouldnt if you knew the inside story but then justice and the law never have been the same thing.

You appear to be suggesting that the club and the RIB drivers were victims of a miscarriage of justice. In what way, please?

 

[Allan]

You appear to be suggesting that the club and the RIB drivers were victims of a miscarriage of justice. In what way, please?

Due to possible continuing legal action I don't think it would be advisable for members of CBYC to comment further.
The talk of night vision above is not too relevant. Cardiff bay is surrounded by various light sources.
Allan

 

[Rigger Mortice]

The talk of night vision above is not too relevant. Cardiff bay is surrounded by various light sources.

Clearly MAIB thought it was of some significance

As the two unlit RIBs approached each other before the collision, their respective aspects were such that, against the dark backgrounds of the River Taff and the barrage, neither was seen by the other until it was too late. The fact that the occupants were, in the main, wearing dark coloured buoyancy aids and clothing, and that one of the boats had dark blue buoyancy tubes, made the unlit boats and their occupants even more difficult to see at night.

 

[Allan]

Yes, I have read that too. My point is that the lights along the top of the barrage and the street lights on the bridge over the Taff, plus all the other lights around the bay would destroy any night vision.
Edit, to make it clear, I don't consider there is any way a helmsperson could establish the improved vision ones gets from prolonged time in the dark. While there are dark backgrounds there are few dark places
Allan

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Yes, I have read that too. My point is that the lights along the top of the barrage and the street lights on the bridge over the Taff, plus all the other lights around the bay would destroy any night vision.
Allan

Isn't that all the more reason to have Nav lights on?

 

[Allan]

Isn't that all the more reason to have Nav lights on?

Yes 100% agree. Which is why I didn't comment on that.
Allan

 

[superheat6k]

Yes, I have read that too. My point is that the lights along the top of the barrage and the street lights on the bridge over the Taff, plus all the other lights around the bay would destroy any night vision.
Edit, to make it clear, I don't consider there is any way a helmsperson could establish the improved vision ones gets from prolonged time in the dark. While there are dark backgrounds there are few dark places
Allan

Surely this is why properly trained boat skippers, and especially those with a commercial responsibility for the safety of others in their charge, will have undergone training for night sailing / motoring, where they learnt about back scatter, how to read lights and marks at night, what lights they are obliged to display, and not least of all navigating at a safe speed.

 

[Elessar]

Yes, I have read that too. My point is that the lights along the top of the barrage and the street lights on the bridge over the Taff, plus all the other lights around the bay would destroy any night vision.
Edit, to make it clear, I don't consider there is any way a helmsperson could establish the improved vision ones gets from prolonged time in the dark. While there are dark backgrounds there are few dark places
Allan

Shore clutter is one of the key determinants of safe speed. This is all building a stronger case for the poor girl.

 

[Allan]

As has been said above, any further legal action would be based on the MAIB and the legal case that resulted in the fine and community service.
Allan

 

[Capt Popeye]

Shore clutter is one of the key determinants of safe speed. This is all building a stronger case for the poor girl.

Craft on the River Thames, commercial and pleasure, have to display navigation lights, and the River Thames has shore light clutter along most of the London banks, along with emergency vehicles flashing lights etc.

The requirement to display navigation lighting is surely paramount.

Might I ask if the boats were fitted with navigation lighting at the time of the incident? And are they now fitted? If not fitted then surely the craft are not licences for night time activities, bearing in mind its a commercial operation.

 

[Mark-1]

To much light clutter, effecting visibility!

Slow down? Drive at safe speed!

Bet Doug@ storm force is worried!

1, Cat. 2, 60 miles from safe haven in mid Atlantic.

2, inadequate safety gear?

3, one young Skipper!

4, one intern/student!

5, two passengers!

Four tragic deaths!

Still trading and a RYA training centre?

Having lost 4 mates, or at least acquaintances, I suspect the effect on his business or legal consequences are pretty low down on his list of concerns. I'd guess the fact he spoke to them in the early stages of the disaster makes it even more harrowing for him.

 

[Allan]

Craft on the River Thames, commercial and pleasure, have to display navigation lights, and the River Thames has shore light clutter along most of the London banks, along with emergency vehicles flashing lights etc.

The requirement to display navigation lighting is surely paramount.

Might I ask if the boats were fitted with navigation lighting at the time of the incident? And are they now fitted? If not fitted then surely the craft are not licences for night time activities, bearing in mind its a commercial operation.

I've always thought it's better to turn lights on early. You would have to check the MAIB report about the equipment on the ribs.
Allan

 

[Rigger Mortice]

Craft on the River Thames, commercial and pleasure, have to display navigation lights, and the River Thames has shore light clutter along most of the London banks, along with emergency vehicles flashing lights etc.

The requirement to display navigation lighting is surely paramount.

Might I ask if the boats were fitted with navigation lighting at the time of the incident? And are they now fitted? If not fitted then surely the craft are not licences for night time activities, bearing in mind its a commercial operation.

You could try reading the MAIB report which answers that question in some detail.

 

[Iliade]

I doubt very much that the legal aspects of this event are done and dusted.

In that regard may I respectfully suggest that forumites refrain from advancing any opinions regarding the seamanship or otherwise of those involved as this forum will undoubtedly be accessed and referenced by the lawyers involved. Lets leave the MAIB report as the final arbiter of seamanship here please.

 

[Rigger Mortice]

I doubt very much that the legal aspects of this event are done and dusted.

In that regard may I respectfully suggest that forumites refrain from advancing any opinions regarding the seamanship or otherwise of those involved as this forum will undoubtedly be accessed and referenced by the lawyers involved. Lets leave the MAIB report as the final arbiter of seamanship here please.

The drivers and the club have both been to court so the criminal proceedings are probably over. Whether or not any civil proceedings will follow is not known.
The interesting thing about theMAIB report is that it appears that it is not admissible in any proceedings..........

Extract from
The United Kingdom Merchant Shipping (Accident Reporting and Investigation)
Regulations 2005 – Regulation 5:
“The sole objective of the investigation of an accident under the Merchant Shipping (Accident Reporting and Investigation) Regulations 2005 shall be the prevention of future accidents through the ascertainment of its causes and circumstances. It shall not be the purpose of an investigation to determine liability nor, except so far as is necessary to achieve its objective, to apportion blame.”
NOTE
This report is not written with litigation in mind and, pursuant to Regulation 13(9) of the Merchant Shipping (Accident Reporting and Investigation) Regulations 2005, shall be inadmissible in any judicial proceedings whose purpose, or one of whose purposes is to attribute or apportion liability or blame.

Dunno how that works.

Beyond that I very much doubt that any lawyer is going to be trawling the internet either for expert opinion, or legal analysis.

 

[Capt Popeye]

You could try reading the MAIB report which answers that question in some detail.

Yes, thank you RM, have just read the report, in particular the reference to absence of Navigational Lighting, and apparently, a reference to low freeboard craft being prohibited from using the Bay during hours of darkness. Well well well, deep poo or what?

 

[BlueSkyNick]

To much light clutter, effecting visibility!

Slow down? Drive at safe speed!

Bet Doug@ storm force is worried!

1, Cat. 2, 60 miles from safe haven in mid Atlantic.

2, inadequate safety gear?

3, one young Skipper!

4, one intern/student!

5, two passengers!

Four tragic deaths!

Still trading and a RYA training centre?

I've seen some insensitive posts in the past 11 years and especially in the past couple of weeks but that just about tops the lot.

Totally irrelevant on this thread

 

[Allan]

Yes, thank you RM, have just read the report, in particular the reference to absence of Navigational Lighting, and apparently, a reference to low freeboard craft being prohibited from using the Bay during hours of darkness. Well well well, deep poo or what?

I'm not sure if the MAIB are classing the ribs as low freeboard vessels. The lights they mention are those which are recommended for rowing boat and canoes. There are often ribs and speedboats in the bay after dark. With and without lights.
Allan