Caprice Bilge Keel Cracks

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Brighterhope

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I have a Mk 5 Caprice with bilge keels, and have found cracks where the keels join onto the hull on both port and starboard.I have raised the hull so the keels are free of the ground and when I push the keels sideways the crack opens a little and a creaking noise is heard. Does anyone know how these keels are attached to the hull,I.e. are they attached using keel bolts or glassed to the hull as part of its structure? The keels are encapsulated on this model of Caprice.
 
Photos might help. encapsulated normally means that the keels are integral parts of the hull moulding and the void inside is filled with ballast and then glassed over internally - so there are no fastenings. Cracks would not allow the keels to move, but would allow water to get in.

The alternative is that the keels are separate from the hull and either castings or GRP mouldings filled with ballast and then bolted through the hull, probably with a framework inside. Cracks could then be the result of the fastenings starting to fail and the keels becoming loose.

The repairs will be different depending on the construction, so you really need to find out before deciding what to do.
 
Pictures

IMG_3320[1].jpgIMG_3321[1].jpgIMG_3322[1].jpgIMG_3323[1].jpg

I think the keels may be moulded as as there is no framing inside. There is inside the cabin a layer of fiberglass which seems a bit loose so maybe this is the second sealing layer you were mentioning.
Thanks for looking
Bruce
 
Looking at the regular line of those cracks suggests that the keels are bolted on and the nuts are glassed over inside. Suggest you cut away the GRP inside to see if there are bolt heads or nuts on studs that go through the hull into the keel.

The lack of rust stains coming from the cracks suggests water has not got in and it could be that it is just the sealant that has failed and you might just get away with raking the seam out and filling with a flexible sealer. You don't say how much the cracks open up when you move the keels and it could just be that the bottom of the hull is flexing.
 
I'm afraid its a keel off job. The nuts will probably be encapsulated beneath the loose fiberglass you mention. This needs to be cut away to release the nuts. I would bet that the boat has lived in a mud berth and constant movement has strained the keels. I would also recommend reinforcing the keel stubs before the keels ard replaced.
 
I have cut away a small section inside and it is
Filled with black metal type cuttings. I have run out of time so
will have to delve further into this area
Next week. Thanks for all your replys
Bruce
 
Brighterhope said:
I have cut away a small section inside and it is
Filled with black metal type cuttings. I have run out of time so
will have to delve further into this area
Next week. Thanks for all your replys
Bruce
Click to expand...

The keels then are hollow mouldings filled with stampings as ballast and sealed over with glass and resin

I am surprised. From your pictures I would also have guessed they were bolted on iron keels

You really, really cannot afford to let water get in at that lot.

You need to investigate those cracks thoroughly.

What happens if water gets in:

Pictures of a Sea Wych keel. The boat came close to being scrapped but was , at the eleventh hour, given away to someone who actually repaired it!

DSCF1194.jpg


DSCF1195.jpg
 
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Agree with Vic. The GRP mouldings have failed along that line. It may well be that the keel mouldings were separate from the hull and bonded on afterwards rather than being laid up in one go with the hull. suggest you grind out the cracks and reinforce that area, plus probably reinforce the inside. If you have not done that sort of work before you may well want to consult a professional. The work itself is not particularly difficult but you need to know what materials to choose and how it is laid up to strengthen the structure.
 
In the Mk 11 wood Caprice, the keels were splayed, therefore unless the keels are vertical, they would have been unable to have been moulded in one piece. I think you have to get a surveyor or proffessional opinion as to integrity and method of repair. Why not try to contact Tony Tucker, the son of the original designer who I believe still has all the original plans. Also I believe the Caprice Owners Association is still active. Both would be a good source of advice.

John ex C203 Sea Tide
 
The keels are splayed outwards and the
gap opens to 4 or 5 mm when I push against the keel. I have been
in touch with the forum with no response,
So am totally delighted with the response
I gave had here. I have emailed Tony Tucker
but will phone him as well and see if there
are any plans available. I am good with my hands
but have apprehension about a DIY repair as I don't
Want to loose a keel when I an 10 miles offshore. Safety first.
I will dig a little deeper into the inside area and see if I can find any nuts/bolts and will also scrape
Out the cracks and see how deep they go.
Thanks for all your help.
Bruce
 
Start thinking about the equation...............Cost of repair/value of boat. If you are having to employ any professionals it may be marginal. Anything else needs attending to do as well?
 
Brighterhope,

if you the least bit handy in the DIY sense it should be a simple - but serious - job, inc beefing up the internal keel mounts with transverse webs etc.

I agree with others it does not look trivial though.

Might well be worth getting a look on a Centaur or similar with reinforced keel mounts ?
 
This a common fault with the Yachthaven built Caprices, and is reasonably straightforward to repair although its a fairly big job. The cause is that the mouldings supporting the keels were not thick enough, and as you have found the splaying action of the keels, particularly if the boat goes down in mud, cracks the GRP. Firstly the weight needs to be off the keel, so that it takes up its natural position. Then inside the boat, with the GRP exposed and cleaned off, at least 4 more layers of 6 oz CSM, glassed in. Once that is in place, you need to glass in further bracing across the keels to stiffen the whole thing up.

Then from the outside, rake out the cracks, and fill them.

The keels were moulded in and filled with metal pieces. If this is allowed to rust it will blow the keels apart, like the Sea Wych pics above. That can be a real nightmare, as all the rust has to be removed too, otherwise it just blows apart again.

Our yard did this repair a couple of years ago. Not cheap, but worth it to save the boat, and if you are any good at DIY, it is quite 'dooable' at the cost of quite a lot of time, and not too many beer tokens.
 
Would this mean that the keels and hull were moulded separately
is so would the keel moulding have had a lip at the top
And have been lowered through the hull
before being filled with ballast. The lip in that
instance would support the keel from falling through
the hull and then glassed in. I gave some big decisions
to make regarding Mizpah but as we all know
simple financial decisions are often clouded
by the love of our boats. The safety aspect is also very
much to the forefront of my mind.
 
As others have said,the keels being at an angle would mean a separate moulding for the keels.

The old method was to form the hull and cut the keel openings after it was removed form the mold. The keels would have been moulded separately then stuck to the hull and glassed internally before adding the stampings.

Your problem could be corrosion of the stampings causing them to swell, hence the crack at the weakest point.

There are only a couple of rules when it comes to ballast in keels.
1- Only use non ferrous metals, stainless steel stampings, lead etc.
2- Any ferrous must be rust free when installed and all air excluded.This means filling the voids with resin or other suitable materials.

Also be advised that the keel being worked on should be JUST off the ground and only use epoxy resin and multi directional cloth signed for use with epoxy. The strengthening is all done on the inside of the keels, avoiding extra work/cost on the external. Overlap the joint by 50 mm each side, then each layer ii 40 mm larger that the last, 6 layers of 300 gram should be enough.

The small crack on the outside can be sealed with a suitable sealant.

Good luck and fair winds. :)
 
I have be weighing up things over the past few days
and am not sure I will ever fully trust the
keels, and with other work also needed I think
it is time to look for a newer and slightly
bigger yacht. Thank you for all your replies
and advice over the past few days.
Bruce
 
Very wise. These boats seem to be in the £1K / £3K range and unless you are sentimentally attached to them it's just not worth the bother.
 
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