Can't prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

QUOTE:
"but then when did you last see a customs man when coming through a British airport."
I see them EVERY time I come through Heathrow, when I arrive back in the UK. Mind you, I am returning from Nigeria, so that is understandable.
However, not once did they stop me and ask if my boat was VAT paid???
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

This only applies(ed) to a limited number of boats (post 85 and in the EU in 92) that had this make believe "status" According to the latest from the RYA actually some time ago, HMRC stopped issuing such letters some time ago as they did not "prove" that VAT had been accounted for , only that the boat was in the EU in 1992. Does not help the 1000s of people whose boats were built after 85 and for which there is no original invoice.

However, the general view seems to be that it is all unnecessary anyway.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

Sure, look at HMRC Public Notice 728 : http://customs.hmrc.gov.uk/channelsPorta...000165#P37_2688
I am not advocating compulsory registration for boats, but merely illustrating where the anomoly with boats versus cars arises.

This also explains why the gendarmes do not chase after your Japanese car - if it is on EC registration plates they know that duty and VAT was paid at first importation. The VAT rules are EC rules, not solely UK rules, and the same principal applies in any EC member state.

There are many aspects to this question, and as others point out, Customs are interested in deliberate fiddles. But to get back to the OP's question, yes you should have some form of proof that VAT has been paid in the EC, but in reality, it is highly unlikely that there would be any problem arising over a 34 year old UK registered boat, and as you point out, where is the evidnece that anyone has ever had a problem.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

[ QUOTE ]

As I said at the beginning , it is a crappy situation in which the RYA and HMC&E bear very equal responsibility.

[/ QUOTE ]

Why is HMC&E 's "couldnt care a £$%**" attitude the fault of the RYA?
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

[ QUOTE ]
So, have any of the 100s of people in the same situation been boarded? Where? What was the outcome?

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My boat is also 34 years old. It was originally registered in Jersey, belonging to a Jersey charter company of the same name. When it got sold to the third owner, a Dutchman, he imported it into the Netherlands and paid VAT on it. Luckily, I have the Dutch customs papers to prove it.

The only place I have been asked for them is in Ramsgate two years ago. The UK customs officers where specifically interested in only those papers. The biggest discussion was over whether the numbers were in Guilders or Euros. They went away happy and I was relieved. I am not sure what the outcome would have been if I only had the bill of sale.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

Suspect no different. If your bill of sale is from a private EU resident then no VAT was involved. If they had a query about VAT it would have been with the previous owner as it was his responsibility, not yours. And as the "chargeable event" was in Holland then it is of no interest to HMRC.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

I suspect they may have had an interest if VAT had never been paid on the boat.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

[ QUOTE ]
My boat is also 34 years old. [...] When it got sold to the third owner, a Dutchman, he imported it into the Netherlands and paid VAT on it. Luckily, I have the Dutch customs papers to prove it.

[/ QUOTE ]
34 years? that makes a build year of 1975 - I thought the VAT cut-off point was 1st Jan. 1985, also for Holland? I'm interested because I bought my 1981 built boat in Holland and the Dutch owner agreed as much when I raised the point.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

I thought so too. But those customs guys in Ramsgate were approaching all the foreign flagged boats with the same question about proof of VAT status. Of course, they might just have been curious to see what kind of responses they got and when they asked the question, they didn't first ask the age of the boat.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

How would they ever know? Presumably VAT was paid when it was imported into the EU - irrespective of age as tax is due when it first enters the EU.

Presumably the receipt you got from the previous owner was direct from the Dutch VAT people. This is the only form of receipt that does prove VAT has been "accounted for" correctly.

However, the fact remains that if you have a bill of sale from a private EU citizen there is nothing they can do to you or your boat.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

Of that I would not be quite so sure. The PO told me that when he sailed the boat home after purchasing it, the Dutch customs were waiting for him at the sea lock. They were very disappointed to find that he had just paid the VAT to their colleagues in Breskens, where he had picked up the boat. The boat, with its previous VAT free Jersey registry, was known to them.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

Perhaps a good example of where customs might be interested - if they have a reason to think (because of other information) that a VAT offence such as importing a boat without paying, has been committed.

However, just wandering along a quay at random indicates they were probably bored!
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

[ QUOTE ]
... just wandering along a quay at random indicates they were probably bored!

[/ QUOTE ]
Definitely, a nice sunny day, the cutter is staying in Ramsgate for the day, they've seen the town, supposed to be at work - "let's go and interview some yachties". Of course, other nations' customs officers also get bored and start to ask random questions too. The Dutch have been particularly inquisitive. Maybe they find things that way, or at least relieve the boredom.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

As I have said before - whilst lack of proof of VAT having been paid may not cause a problem with the authorities, in the UK, or further afield, the fact that some buyers will be put off buying a boat where proof is not available, suggests that not being able to prove VAT paid has an effect on the value of the boat, and its' saleability (no pun intended /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif )

So buyers should bear that in mind when buying, and sellers should bear it in mind when selling.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

The problem is that both the RYA and HMRC maintain that any debt (VAT, Repairs, Harbour fees etc etc) remain attached to the boat under marine law/lien. When challenged on the specfices of the marine law/lien in relation to VAT specifically, they have absolutely no answer. They are able to direct me to other liens regarding repars, wages, stores etc which do appea to attach to the vessel. They are simply unable to direct you to a law re VAT and a marine lien.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

Not sure they state it as specifically as that, but it is implied through the advice, leading people to think that VAT is attached to the asset. Using terms such as "VAT status" add to this impression. Apart from the reference in EU VAT legislation (I don't have the specific reference) that yachts moving around EU have to show that VAT has been accounted for, yachts are no different from any other goods that are subject to VAT. There is no connection with "maritime law".
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

In the case of someone sailing a yacht across the Atlantic from where he had just bought it at a better price than available in Europe:-

Isn't the boat due to pay VAT, import duty, whatever? Suppose it isn't paid.

If the said boat is sold in the UK, private to private, and the new owner does not get a VAT receipt, is the new owner vulnerable?
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

This comes back to the argument that person B is not responsible for person A's taxes. Person A is still the one who evaded the taxman, not person B. This is not my argument but a very good one presented on the fora by someone far more knowledgeable on the subject than me.
 
Re: Can\'t prove VAT status - anyone really had a problem

The offence is committed by the person who "put the boat on the EU market" that is the importer - who also is responsible for the CE mark. A subsequent purchaser is not responsible for the VAT.

This sort of situation is one of the exceptions where a private purchaser should be extra wary. Chances are an import is obvious, for example a model not sold in the EU or documentation that shows it has been used abroad, so proof that it has a CE mark and duty and VAT have been paid would be important.
 
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