canoeists

powerskipper

powerskipper

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Dorset/ Hampshire. south coast
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Can I please ask anyone who knows canoeists who canoe at night to wear lights please. Came across some coming in from a night ex last night, If I had not been on the bow sorting warps , the out come could have been very different to the polite suggestion they would be safer having lights.. They had not seen us, 35ft boat with full nav lights on.
 
They are obliged to carry a light and show it as required.

Obviously the result could have been hideous,but would you have ever even known about it ! Certainly can't see anything under the regs placing you at any point of liability for such a collision with an invisible idiot.
 
If you are seeing some of the unlit Kayakers who inhabit the Dorset/South Coast area then they've failed the course.
 
I was coming up the east coast of Jersey a few years ago, overcast, gps clear, miles from any crunchy bits, Radar clear, a long swell probably 4 to 6 ft.

I was driving from saloon, next thing I see is a man, with a beard, in a dark green coat, green hat, green canoe sitting effectively at hip height in the water with an air height of about 3 ft Max, I was fairly close and he was very grumpy.

I don't think I ran any down.

How the fruch are you supposed to see them?
 
superheat6k said:
They are obliged to carry a light and show it as required.

Obviously the result could have been hideous,but would you have ever even known about it ! Certainly can't see anything under the regs placing you at any point of liability for such a collision with an invisible idiot.
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Don't believe that is the case. Any vessel non-powered vessel below 7m may just carry a torch.
 
rb_stretch said:
Don't believe that is the case. Any vessel non-powered vessel below 7m may just carry a torch.
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From rule 25 (might have been modified by later revisions as this is 1996 version) - a torch is a light ...

d) (i)

A sailing vessel of less than 7 metres in length shall, if practicable, exhibit the lightsprescribed in paragraph (a) or (b) of this Rule, but if she does not, she shall have ready athand an electric torch or lighted lantern showing a white light which shall be exhibited insufficient time to prevent collision.


line, the upper being red and the lower green, but these lights shall not be exhibited in conjunctionwith the combined lantern permitted by paragraph (b) of this Rule.


(ii) A vessel under oars may exhibit the lights prescribed in this Rule for sailing vessels, butif she does not, she shall have ready at hand an electric torch or lighted lantern showinga white light which shall be exhibited in sufficient time to prevent collision.





If you hit one at night and they don't have a torch then they would have a pretty tough time proving any one else being at fault IMHO.
 
I think it should be obligatory to have flexible whip with an orange pennant on it by day and a flashing LED by night. A bit like the whip antennas on buggies and there are a multitude of lightweight flashing cycling LED lights to choose from.
We get them here on dusk patrol, they must have a death wish especially when there is a bit of swell and they are only visible intermittently.
 
superheat6k said:
If you hit one at night and they don't have a torch then they would have a pretty tough time proving any one else being at fault IMHO.
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1. Rule 25 describes a vessel under oars, most kayakers would not describe themselves in that way.
2. Notwithstanding that, it is common sense for a kayak on the water at night to carry a light as described in Rule 25, although this can be torch that you can switch on if you think a collision risk may occur.
3. If they don't use the light then Rules 5, 6 and 17 all have a bearing, and my interpretation of Rule 17 is that once an actual collision takes place you cannot just claim you were stand on boat, therefore not at fault.
4. Power Skipper has not described the relative aspects of the vessels. If the kayakers were paddling towards or across him/her they should have been able to see and either take avoiding action or show a light. If they were going in the same direction as Powerskipper they would not have seen him/her and may well not have heard him/her and therefore even if they had been complying with Rule 25 and carrying torch would not have identified the need to switch it on.
 
Sometime ago attended a meeting attended by all the local clubs who boat in the area.The visibility of kayaks and canoes was mentioned several times.Especially in poor light conditions and with any sort of swell running.
The impression was that the canoe enthusiasts were, at the time ,totally unaware of the difficulty of spotting them,even from a boat at displacement speeds let alone at 25 knots.
It is not so bad if it is a large group but the increasing popularity of fishing from canoes/kayaks,usually alone, will not help the situation.
 
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superheat6k said:
If you hit one at night and they don't have a torch then they would have a pretty tough time proving any one else being at fault IMHO.
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Nothing is that easy. I know of a guy (no names here) who did exactly that. There were two persons in the Canoo, both totally drunk. He was absolutely sober, but having just left the Marina he went on plane (in spite of the speed restriction !). He never saw them, he didnt even notice the accident and continued. Unfortunately the two drunks were killed in the accident. The actual fine he got was absolutely nothing compared to the civil lawsuit where he lost "almost everything"

Even if the the others are idiots, you must have a proper outlook. In his case his nightview was spoiled because of the light in the Marina, comming out into the dark he saw nothing.

For the records - this was not in the UK..
 
Another frightening thing is how far off-shore they appear. There is definitely some training/awareness required in the fishing community, yes we will avoid them but only if we can see them. Black canoes, no lights and camouflage kit is ok for the SBS but not for anyone else.
 
superheat6k said:
They are obliged to carry a light and show it as required.

Obviously the result could have been hideous,but would you have ever even known about it ! Certainly can't see anything under the regs placing you at any point of liability for such a collision with an invisible idiot.[/QUOTE

Col regs reference please.]
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Just a thought. While I think that you would have to have a death wish to canoe/kayak at night with no light, any light bright enough to make a difference will ruin your night vision.
 
Whilst I have sympathy with the general trend of opinion in this thread I do worry about the implication that insufficient lookout is being kept to see a canoeist in poor light conditions at the speed being maintained. I say this having, many years ago, lost a relative a sea due, far as could be ascertained to his boat (an ocean racer) hitting a floating obstruction probably an ISO container but possibly a large log. Not all obstructions will be charted or lit. A proper lookout and correct speed is important, for a quick demonstration of how not to do it see here: http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?440113-134-knots!!!-and-hitting-a-buoy!
 
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Dougal Tolan said:
Just a thought. While I think that you would have to have a death wish to canoe/kayak at night with no light, any light bright enough to make a difference will ruin your night vision.
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We normally hung a glow stick from the back of the kayaking helmet at night.

Our primary defence was that anything big enough to harm us grounded before hitting the rocks we liked to play around. Rock hopping in daylight was fun. In the dark it's instinct+fun. Nearly as much fun as surfing in the dark
 
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