Canados 23 or San Lorenzo 70 - would you buy either of these?

@rafiki - yes, I already owe Bart some large drinks for his advice so far. I think I might be in debt to him for a barrel of Dalwhinnie whiskey by now! I agree that wooden floors would really suit the Canados. I'd much rather have wood than carpets too.

@jfm - Thanks for the tips on the sunseeker 62. I definitely want to get the highest spec I can afford and consider boats that have the best possible resale options in the future ... just in case.

@Nick_H - yes, there are plenty of big mobos which have been on the market for at least a year and I've seen lots of them come down a lot in price during that time. I'd hope to get that particular Canados for well under 200k euro considering the work that needs doing to update / fix it. I agree that offering a low, but serious price will be accepted by one of the sellers of the bigger boats eventually. Oddly enough, that Princess 65 (with it's seriously unlawful upholstery, carpet and gold taps!) is one that popped up on my radar recently. I'm hoping to see it next weekend.

@Deleted User - I'm going to check out some Sunseeker / Princess yachts about 60 - 65 feet in the coming weeks to get a feel for them. I don't want to rule them out just because they don't have quite the same grandeur inside as the Canados / San Lorenzo.

As far as the boat being used as a houseboat / cruiser, I'm hoping to get the best of both worlds. I don't want much, do I? :)

Having a boat that's large enough to spend time on during the week but fun at the weekends is what I'm aiming for. Then there's the obvious "wow" factor and sleek looks that you get with a planing boat which really appeal to me.

That said, I did rather like this Navetta displacement yacht I saw in Rome recently.

When I met up with Bart, we were talking about the pros / cons of displacement yachts vs planing yacht and came to the same conclusion about speed. While displacement boats are a lot more economical, and you certainly don't need to travel at 20 - 25kts on every journey, it's nice to know that in a planing boat you can do both :)

Thanks for the links to those dutch boats. They're pretty interesting. Particularly the Mulder 61. I'm certainly going to check out some of the Dutch boats and keep my options open.

I agree about the master cabins on the GRP boats not being so comfortable. That's one of the main things I've been considering all along. I don't want to feel claustrophobic on the boat. Canados / San Lorenzo have full beam master cabins and they feel very spacious. Slightly larger than my bedroom in my current flat in London actually.

@BartW - You're making me very jealous, sitting there in the sunshine on a beautiful boat :)

Thanks for your thoughts on the Canados. After I saw the boat in Genoa it didn't give me the thrill I was hoping for - mainly because of the smoke smell.

I'd certainly replace the carpet with wooden floors. It's easier to keep clean and looks so much better.

You're probably right about the wooden superstructure not liking the UK climate. I should probably speak to some wooden boat owners in the UK to get an idea of how much they need to look after there boats. I guess the answer will probably be "constantly" :)

Were there some specific areas in your Canados that were affected by leaks? I had a good look around the Genoa boat and didn't see any watermarks around any of the windows or on any of the interior wood. It took lots of video of the interior so I will examine the footage more closely.

I think you're right about some of the steel dutch build boats. Some of them look ok but they're not as good looking as Canados / Sunseeker, etc. I quite like some of the Hatteras yachts too, such as this 1972 Yachtfish
(http://www.boatshed.com/hatteras_58-boat-130501.html).

autoimage-130501_BoatPic_Main.jpg


I've just always preferred the look of planing boats.

But then there is the question of cost. I don't want make a compromise in style if I can avoid it but I have to be sensible about this too.

I'd love to have a Canados as a houseboat in London and be able to take it out for cruises around the south coast, Cornwall, Channel Islands, etc. when the mood takes me. I'm not sure I'd ever be able to offer anything as glamorous as the Blue Angel Dive Cruises though :) The recent photos and videos are pretty cool.

I don't think an invite to come on a forum dive cruise in St Kats would get many people interested!

I'd be happy to offer good food, plenty of drink and fun stuff in London though. Umbrellas will be provided too ;)

Keep enjoying the sunshine in the Med and thanks for all the excellent advice.
 
Andrew72 said:
I quite like some of the Hatteras yachts too, such as this 1972 Yachtfish
Click to expand...
I guess you know that Hatteras boats are made in the USA. They are very well regarded, especially the older boats, and have a very heavy build. However there's no getting away from the fact that the mechanical and electrical stuff on a boat like this is 40yrs old and unless it's had a refit (which it doesn't look like it has), its a potential minefield. Great boat for somebody who is handy to buy cheap as a refit project but I'm not sure you want that. The price looks very ambitious IMHO.
Divemaster of this parish may have an opinion on the reliability of those Detroit diesels
 
Hi Mike, yes, I've heard good things of Hatteras. I too thought that particular one was a bit pricey for a 40 year old boat. I'm not keen to take on a 40 year old boat but just had it on my "potentially have a look at" list as it's in the UK and doesn't have too bad a layout for a liveaboard.

I'm going to keep an eye out for more modern Hatteras. There's a 1989 Hatteras (complete with a residential mooring in London) for £175k but it's not really my thing - despite the bonus of the mooring.

@Whopper - I've not really looked at Broom / Atlantic. The Atlantic doesn't look too bad. The interior is pretty well laid out. Despite that, I'm not sure they are quite designed for proper liveaboard. Thanks for the tip though. I might keep an eye out for those to see if any of them take my fancy.
 
Andrew72 said:
I've heard good things of Hatteras...
...just had it on my "potentially have a look at" list as it's in the UK
Click to expand...
Understandable approach, but wrong, I'm afraid.
If you like that type of boats, you must fly to the other side of the Pond and see what the real market has to offer.
In EU, the offer is just a tiny fraction of what you can find in the US, and even considering the shipping and the 50hz conversion, you can surely find better deals around there.
 
Andrew72 said:
Were there some specific areas in your Canados that were affected by leaks? I had a good look around the Genoa boat and didn't see any watermarks around any of the windows or on any of the interior wood.
Click to expand...

we discovered quite a few leaks in the deck floor, water ingress in the ceeling of the saloon, master cabin, port cabin, and engine room.

most of them were small but they were there when washing the deck floor with loads of water, or in very heavy sea, heavy rain and loads of spray on the deck

now after the rebuild / teak recaulking, most of them are gone,
there still is a small leak in the saloon, and a new in the util room.
I'm afraid that due to the recaulking, and making grooves deeper (untill the plywood underneath) that the deck is now even more vunerable for leaks, when the black caulking product shrinks / detaches a bit.

remember underneath is all plywood, so water will find its way to lower area's when the teak is not completely sealed.

I believe within a few years, I want or need to renew the teak, and put a epoxy layer underneath to have a seemless watertight surface under the teak.
wondering wat Vas is going to do on Mitos regarding this issue.


when searching for this boat we looked at a sister boat Nefertari, that had a lot more damage from water ingress, so when not treated immediately, ....


Canados boats of this generation, have another weak point, revealed by my surveyor, and that is the plywood covering of the inside of the gunwale,
this was also treated / repared during my winter rebuild

SDC12359boordbinnenkant.jpg


similar on the other side

SDC12358boordSN.jpg



This plank of marine plywood, is extra protected against moisture;

P1110117.jpg


And then put in position and glued on the inside of the gunwale, temporarily fixed with these wooden slats:

P1110116.jpg




all good now on BA, but I'm afraid that in a more wet climate, all this could be a much bigger issue


by the way, I forget to mention that I quite liked that Navetta for sale you posted,
not surprising that its sold already,
would have looked nice in St Kats port in Londen imho :)
 
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Andrew I hope you bought the boat !?
So I had a very similar predicament, and I wish I had read this thread, some very interesting comments and knowledge.
In 2012 I wanted a boat in St Kats, I went to Essex Boat Yards and ended up purchasing a Jeanneau Prestige 42 Fly. There were a few other options but I was getting the most for my money from the Jeanneau, 23 tonnes, fly bridge, really liked the decor etc and the boat was up for £220k. I thought; "Ferrari or boat ?" so it was an easy choice. I offered £180k for the boat and it was accepted, I always planned to keep the boat in London just to learn how to drive (as I had never driven a boat before :-)) and then ship her to the SoF. So I picked the boat up one morning and the guys at EBY drove her down to St Kats, at first they put me in a terrible mooring over the back, so after getting to know the guys at St Kats and becoming friendly with the staff they moved me right to the centre of the main lock, I was two boats away from arguably the nicest boat in St Kats; the Gaucho boat (a Sunseeker Predator) and mine didn't seem much smaller because she's actually over 4m wide.

Hahaha so learning how to drive a boat on the Thames is a funny and nerve racking experience !! Because the Thames is tidal it moves 7 metres every 6.5 hours, so you have to time your trips very carefully, and you can never stay out for more than a few hours because you either get caught on the way back under one of the bridges (my friend crashed his boat into Blackfriars bridge) or you run out of water. There are some occasional days when you get two high tides during the time St Kats is open and you can stay out ALL day, BUT you can't stop anywhere so it's really a tall ask, maybe drive to Twickenham and back.

I got pulled up by the PLA on 5 occasions and the last time I got a fine. I wasn't their favourite. The speed limit is a joke, it's 8 knots in some places on the Thames, pretty much everywhere. So slow that if there is wind or current you get moved about a lot. Then again it's FREEZING being on the fly bridge unless it's a baking hot summer's day in London... Which as you know is not very often.

Then the problem is getting diesel ! There aren't just petrol stations along the thames, you have to call the guys and book it in (very friendly father and son btw).

Then filling up the tender ! There is no petrol on the Thames for obvious reasons so you have to go to a car petrol station. I ended up buying a mobile petrol tanker that I had wheeled around and again, very dangerous, very explosive. Some funny stories I have that I won't go into now.

So driving on the Thames is close to pointless and hard work. There is no lift to anti-fowl or service. But it's great to learn as long as you don't mind a telling off from the PLA, the occasional fine and generally the business boats getting the right hump with you being one of the only pleasure boats on the Thames, not having the foggiest ideas of what you're doing !!

Every time I look at the Thames now though, I look at it through different eyes and with a different perspective. Some very good memories and not many people get to do that.

SO ! In 2013 I paid a transport company to remove the fly bridge and drive my boat to Nice, France. I spent months calling every single marine in the SoF and they were all full, some had 10 year waiting lists. I was so lucky to have a great French instructor who kept on at the ports and finally there was a cancellation in Nice ! £40k seems a lot to transfer the boat, I paid £10k to get the boat dropped to Marseille by road. I followed the boat and truck drive in my car, what a nightmare.

I then drove the boat with a friend who met me in Marseille to Nice. SO much EASIER to drive a boat where the tide only changes a fraction of the amount of the Thames, no boats anywhere near you, VERY friendly port staff who all help you secure the boat when taking off or leaving (50 Euro drink of course).

3 years on and I've loved every minute of it. people say boating is expensive, it is, but it's bloody worth it. Some of the stop the clock moment I've had on the boat would be hard to beat; friends, family, and lots of new friends :-)

The crazy thing about the SoF is most marines leave a dozen spare berths free each night so we just drive from port to port, phone through on VHF 12 and stay in different places. last week I spent a week at the Cannes Filme Festival, in Port de Cannes with no notice.

Ok so fast forward to 2016. Last year I only managed to get out here for 3 weekends and I've actually started chartering boats. You're looking at a lot BUT no hassle, some real benefits. The staff, the port access / position, all really great. However, last year I was decided I wanted a new boat. I really try not to get to caught up in materialism and size, but last year I came to the Monaco GP, and I must say my boat was the smallest and oldest looking boat in port Hercule (apart from the very old ones at the front). I'm at the GP again now and I've put a deposit down on a Riva Domino 86 foot. I could have got a San Lorenzo 100+ foot BUT Riva has an office and service station here, they manage the boat, all the repairs and clean the boat inside and out. Yes, fairly expensive but I could live on this boat, get her sent to the Bahamas, USA and it won't cost much more than the hotels I normally stay out. In addition you can charter your boat and a general rule of thumb is one week of charter usually covers your month of running costs.

So overall learning the Med, boats I would say has been a highlight of all the things I've done, and I would highly recommend it. I have always gone for the most I can afford, my Mum would always tell me I'm being silly but every property I purchased since 2005 has more than doubled, but at the time, my family would tell me "no James, you can't afford that".

I have an AMAZING mechanic from the UK. Every Marina in the SoF have a rip off mechanic, it became a joke. So I fly Dan out htere (£200 EasyJet flights) every time I leave, he's constantly replacing batteries, pumps and doing odd jobs such as adding markers to my anchor, even cleaning the boat for me. I then pay another company to give the boat a good wash once a month.

Sorry for the rush, the GP is about to start and I've berthed in Port hercule (about 50x the normal price for the week) and the GP is starting in 40mins so apologies for any spelling or grammar mistakes ! I hope you got the boat and I'm sure it was well worth it.
 
JamesM1979 said:
I could live on this boat, get her sent to the Bahamas, USA and it won't cost much more than the hotels I normally stay out.
Click to expand...
Wow, you must be used to some pretty decent hotels! :D

Enjoy the Domino, I've never seen one inside but she looks impressive for good...
...though getting noticed in Port Hercules will still be challenging, I'm afraid. :rolleyes:

Out of curiosity, what is the 100+ SL that you considered as an alternative, the 108 maybe? And what sold you on the Riva instead?
Regardless, A nice to have problem indeed! :cool:

PS: I meant to say, welcome to the asylum!
 
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JamesM1979 said:
Andrew I hope you bought the boat !?
So I had a very similar predicament, and I wish I had read this thread, some very interesting comments and knowledge.
In 2012 I wanted a boat in St Kats, I went to Essex Boat Yards and ended up purchasing a Jeanneau Prestige 42 Fly. There were a few other options but I was getting the most for my money from the Jeanneau, 23 tonnes, fly bridge, really liked the decor etc and the boat was up for £220k. I thought; "Ferrari or boat ?" so it was an easy choice. I offered £180k for the boat and it was accepted, I always planned to keep the boat in London just to learn how to drive (as I had never driven a boat before :-)) and then ship her to the SoF. So I picked the boat up one morning and the guys at EBY drove her down to St Kats, at first they put me in a terrible mooring over the back, so after getting to know the guys at St Kats and becoming friendly with the staff they moved me right to the centre of the main lock, I was two boats away from arguably the nicest boat in St Kats; the Gaucho boat (a Sunseeker Predator) and mine didn't seem much smaller because she's actually over 4m wide.

Hahaha so learning how to drive a boat on the Thames is a funny and nerve racking experience !! Because the Thames is tidal it moves 7 metres every 6.5 hours, so you have to time your trips very carefully, and you can never stay out for more than a few hours because you either get caught on the way back under one of the bridges (my friend crashed his boat into Blackfriars bridge) or you run out of water. There are some occasional days when you get two high tides during the time St Kats is open and you can stay out ALL day, BUT you can't stop anywhere so it's really a tall ask, maybe drive to Twickenham and back.

I got pulled up by the PLA on 5 occasions and the last time I got a fine. I wasn't their favourite. The speed limit is a joke, it's 8 knots in some places on the Thames, pretty much everywhere. So slow that if there is wind or current you get moved about a lot. Then again it's FREEZING being on the fly bridge unless it's a baking hot summer's day in London... Which as you know is not very often.

Then the problem is getting diesel ! There aren't just petrol stations along the thames, you have to call the guys and book it in (very friendly father and son btw).

Then filling up the tender ! There is no petrol on the Thames for obvious reasons so you have to go to a car petrol station. I ended up buying a mobile petrol tanker that I had wheeled around and again, very dangerous, very explosive. Some funny stories I have that I won't go into now.

So driving on the Thames is close to pointless and hard work. There is no lift to anti-fowl or service. But it's great to learn as long as you don't mind a telling off from the PLA, the occasional fine and generally the business boats getting the right hump with you being one of the only pleasure boats on the Thames, not having the foggiest ideas of what you're doing !!

Every time I look at the Thames now though, I look at it through different eyes and with a different perspective. Some very good memories and not many people get to do that.

SO ! In 2013 I paid a transport company to remove the fly bridge and drive my boat to Nice, France. I spent months calling every single marine in the SoF and they were all full, some had 10 year waiting lists. I was so lucky to have a great French instructor who kept on at the ports and finally there was a cancellation in Nice ! £40k seems a lot to transfer the boat, I paid £10k to get the boat dropped to Marseille by road. I followed the boat and truck drive in my car, what a nightmare.

I then drove the boat with a friend who met me in Marseille to Nice. SO much EASIER to drive a boat where the tide only changes a fraction of the amount of the Thames, no boats anywhere near you, VERY friendly port staff who all help you secure the boat when taking off or leaving (50 Euro drink of course).

3 years on and I've loved every minute of it. people say boating is expensive, it is, but it's bloody worth it. Some of the stop the clock moment I've had on the boat would be hard to beat; friends, family, and lots of new friends :-)

The crazy thing about the SoF is most marines leave a dozen spare berths free each night so we just drive from port to port, phone through on VHF 12 and stay in different places. last week I spent a week at the Cannes Filme Festival, in Port de Cannes with no notice.

Ok so fast forward to 2016. Last year I only managed to get out here for 3 weekends and I've actually started chartering boats. You're looking at a lot BUT no hassle, some real benefits. The staff, the port access / position, all really great. However, last year I was decided I wanted a new boat. I really try not to get to caught up in materialism and size, but last year I came to the Monaco GP, and I must say my boat was the smallest and oldest looking boat in port Hercule (apart from the very old ones at the front). I'm at the GP again now and I've put a deposit down on a Riva Domino 86 foot. I could have got a San Lorenzo 100+ foot BUT Riva has an office and service station here, they manage the boat, all the repairs and clean the boat inside and out. Yes, fairly expensive but I could live on this boat, get her sent to the Bahamas, USA and it won't cost much more than the hotels I normally stay out. In addition you can charter your boat and a general rule of thumb is one week of charter usually covers your month of running costs.

So overall learning the Med, boats I would say has been a highlight of all the things I've done, and I would highly recommend it. I have always gone for the most I can afford, my Mum would always tell me I'm being silly but every property I purchased since 2005 has more than doubled, but at the time, my family would tell me "no James, you can't afford that".

I have an AMAZING mechanic from the UK. Every Marina in the SoF have a rip off mechanic, it became a joke. So I fly Dan out htere (£200 EasyJet flights) every time I leave, he's constantly replacing batteries, pumps and doing odd jobs such as adding markers to my anchor, even cleaning the boat for me. I then pay another company to give the boat a good wash once a month.

Sorry for the rush, the GP is about to start and I've berthed in Port hercule (about 50x the normal price for the week) and the GP is starting in 40mins so apologies for any spelling or grammar mistakes ! I hope you got the boat and I'm sure it was well worth it.
Click to expand...

As Delboy would say, it's like the 'parable of the lucky git'. Seriously, if you've got the cash, then there isn't a better way spend it. We only live once:).
 
Riva are a bit trademark in Monaco Monte Carlo, if you do not buy one of them you are second best.

Itama has the same status in Capri.
Overmarine Mangusta has the same in St.Tropez, lol and Fairline had more or less the same in Malta.
 
PowerYachtBlog said:
Riva are a bit trademark in Monaco Monte Carlo, if you do not buy one of them you are second best.

Itama has the same status in Capri.
Overmarine Mangusta has the same in St.Tropez, lol and Fairline had more or less the same in Malta.
Click to expand...

Interesting, it was seeing a Targa37 moored for lunch in the Blue Lagoon that started me on the whole Fairline thing.
 
petem said:
Interesting, it was seeing a Targa37 moored for lunch in the Blue Lagoon that started me on the whole Fairline thing.
Click to expand...

Yes we have a total of about 8 37s here, 4 new (modern) 38s, 3 34s, over 10 of the 30/33, 10 33 Targa (foward r/a), six of the old 34/35, 6 43s, 3 40, 6 47/50 Squadron, 3 new 55 Squadron, 2 58 Squadron (1 mk.1 and 1 mk.2) 4 Targa GT, 1 52 Targa, 3 48 Targa, 4 47 Targa GT, 2 50 Targa GT, 2 52 Squadron, 1 old 55 Squadron, 1 64 Targa GT, 1 78 Squadron Custom HT, 1 74 Squadron, 2 old 56 Squardon, 1 43 Squadron, 5 46 Phantom, 5 43 Phantom, 2 50 Phantom etc etc Lol I better stop there is about double to this of other old models; like the 37 Phantom, 36 Corsica etc etc

Lol I was in love with Fairline up from the eighties (Sunfury, Sportfury, old 33 Targa) till early nineties, but then perhaps the brand became to popular on the island for my taste.

My preferred all time Fairline is a neighboring 39 Targa from 1997 I have two berths up. Still the most best looking Fairline ever made in my book, followed by the 43 Targa.
 
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baylabayla3288 said:
The SL range of motor yachts have catched my eye as well, particularly the older 62s, are these full fiber glass or is wood used in the superstructure somewhere?

http://m.xboat.uk/3611-SAN+LORENZO+SAN+LORENZO+62.html

210k€ for this seems extreme value from what seems to be in quite good order (judging from the pictures)
Click to expand...

San Lorenzo 62 is full fiberglass hull and super structure. Mast radar arch models produced till 1996 had this made of sprayed white alloy.
In 1997 Sanlorenzo had the 62 updated with an integrated radar arch similar to the 82 and new 72 models.
Integrated radar arch models fetch quite a premium in the used market. As they look much nicer and newer.
For a 62 I would always go for this model with the Man 1100hp, most are powered with minus a couple which had 820hp.

57 is also full fiberglass, but most are powered with 735hp GMs, and some have Man 820hp. These last get a premium and a knot or more of cruise and WoT.

Those 62s never get old, still a fine gentleman's yacht.
 
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