Can you fail RYA competent crew?

[prv]

Just so! If anyone offered a five-day course to get a Watch Leader cert, actually involving five days sailing a square-rigger, they would be snowed under with applications including mine..

Well, until a few years ago the Tall Ships Youth Trust offered square-rig voyages of varying lengths, which might have resulted in an invitation to come back as a Watch Leader for those who showed an aptitude, and they were perpetually undersubscribed and struggling to fill berths. Particularly on voyages in school term-times aimed at adults. To be fair they did themselves no favours with their lack-lustre publicity - there must have been hundreds of people who'd have been interested but had no idea the opportunity existed.

(I'm writing in the past tense as I've drifted out of touch with the TSYT since they abandoned their namesake ships in favour of ordinary yachts.)

TS Pelican out of Weymouth had some cross-pollination of TSYT square-rig people and life on board worked similarly in many respects - I only sailed in her once but I believe she's still operating if you're interested.

Pete

 

[Ladybirdgaffcutter]

Thanks, I'm interested and will contact them. Funnily enough the jib on my tjalk is a topsl handed down from the Winston Churchil!

 

[lw395]

Op here. You're not giving me much to pass on to raise her spirits!

I said she should be having daily feedback, to which she replied, "I can see on his face what he is thinking". Not so supportive by the sounds of it.

I'm picking her up tomorrow so will report back.

Edit: 2 cc and 1 ds on the boat.

Personally I'd be asking for more than 5 lots of feedback on a 5 day course.
The skipper candidate should also be giving feedback and making the crew work together. Including when he is not helming.
I suspect the instructor thinks the CC candidates are well up to speed, but the DS needs more attention.
A lot of these courses, the instructor ends up doing too much theory and sailing and very little crew organisation or development of leadership. The skipper should be being trained to be in charge, rather than the instructor calling the shots at a 'breathe in, breathe out' level.

I feel perhaps you might have done better to send your better half on a DS if not Coastal Skipper course.

 

[Birdseye]

You can't pass or fail CC or DS, you just have to be there and demonstrate the motions.

You can fail ie not be given the cert if you come across a particuarly bloody minded / power crazy instructor but the RYA's policy always used to be that CC was an introduction, people should be encouraged and if they were present and tried then that was good enough. I only ever failed one [person at DS for that matter - she was a retired nursing sister who was completely incapable of even the rule of 12ths.

 

[dgadee]

Personally I'd be asking for more than 5 lots of feedback on a 5 day course.
The skipper candidate should also be giving feedback and making the crew work together. Including when he is not helming.
I suspect the instructor thinks the CC candidates are well up to speed, but the DS needs more attention.
A lot of these courses, the instructor ends up doing too much theory and sailing and very little crew organisation or development of leadership. The skipper should be being trained to be in charge, rather than the instructor calling the shots at a 'breathe in, breathe out' level.

I feel perhaps you might have done better to send your better half on a DS if not Coastal Skipper course.

I think tutor is not up to it. Partner has been round North of Scotland and sailed all the way to Costa del Sol and loves helming for hours on end. She wants off her boat now. Tutor's smoking made her seasick for the first time in her life today (latest WhatsApp ...)

DS would not be feasible - I've never met anyone with less sense of direction in my life. And that wasn't her goal - it was simply to be able to do more things on our boat.

Still, looking for the silver lining, she might pay more attention to my instructions in future! Less lip would be welcome.

 

[JumbleDuck]

We are still living in those days, on certain boats..

Including mine!

 

[JumbleDuck]

I've never actually done Day Skipper theory, but I understand it's largely navigation?

Precisely none of that would have had any relevance to my job as a watch leader in William or Stavros.

Navigation, tides, weather, anchoring, knots, signals ... it's almost 30 years ago now, so I may be forgetting some bits. You may well be right about the sort of watch leader: perhaps for OYC things rather than square riggers.

 

[lw395]

I think tutor is not up to it. Partner has been round North of Scotland and sailed all the way to Costa del Sol and loves helming for hours on end. She wants off her boat now. Tutor's smoking made her seasick for the first time in her life today (latest WhatsApp ...)

DS would not be feasible - I've never met anyone with less sense of direction in my life. And that wasn't her goal - it was simply to be able to do more things on our boat.

Still, looking for the silver lining, she might pay more attention to my instructions in future! Less lip would be welcome.

I wouldn't be tolerating an inconsiderate smoker on a boat.
I think the only mitigation for the school is that she's quite clearly grossly over-qualified for the CC course.
But a good instructor should have been able to run with that and find some gaps in her skills and knowledge to work on? Maybe some of the instructors on here would care to comment on how they'd cope with a CC customer who is way above what's required?
I don't think a sense of direction is required to be a good YM. Organisation and ability to learn are far more important.
I am not an instructor, by the way.

When I was looking to get my first yacht, my other half did YM theory (from scratch) at night school and the VHF course. She is not a 'maths person' but found a good instructor and passed.

 

[Daedelus]

You can't fail as it is not an exam. However, the RYA say the cert may be withheld for 3 basic reasons:
- In spite of the efforts of the instructor they have just not enjoyed sailing. (Why anyone would want to do it if they don't enjoy it etc)
-Completely incapacitated by seasickness for the entire week and so didn't enjoy the cruise. (same comment as above)
- Catastrophically incapable or clumsy people who are more of a danger than a help on board.

I think your friend may be alright from what you have said but she should complain to the school about lack of tuition. If she feels strongly enough complain to the RYA, they take such things seriously.

 

[steve yates]

it was simply to be able to do more things on our boat.

If she has sailed around the north of scotland and all the way to the costa del sol, I'm not sure what more she would expect to learn on a cc course! She will be miles overqualified in experience for that already. Might have been better doing the ds, she might learn more and then she can argue with you about your decisions

 

[[3889]]

That's rather poor practice, unless they had paid substantially more than you.

Not really. The YM candidates will give instruction and advice to the CC. That the instructor is concentrating on, and I'm sure advising, them is perfectly reasonable and perhaps explains why 120 hours of training on 150k-ish piece of plant with accomodation and food thrown in can be had for around £600. How much does 8 hours training on a £500 PC with Excel cost?

 

[RupertW]

If she has sailed around the north of scotland and all the way to the costa del sol, I'm not sure what more she would expect to learn on a cc course! She will be miles overqualified in experience for that already. Might have been better doing the ds, she might learn more and then she can argue with you about your decisions

My wife wouldn't be able to reef or hoist a sail, tell which direction the wind is coming from or how the sails should therefore be set, or how to tie a clove hitch or bowline despite us sailing together since 1988. She went on a DS theory class a couple of years ago then on the DS practical but the instructor spent a lot of time with her on CC parts as that was her weakness. Asking her to helm to a bouy or marina berth in a 40 foot boat, navigate a rocky channel at night without chartplotter or plan a voyage was child's play to her but she'd always avoided the basics.

So a lot of experience may be limited to the parts that the crew member wanted to take part in leaving the instructor to fill in the gaps that the spouse could not.

Now she knows how to do all those things, but won't, so we have moved on a bit.

 

[dgadee]

My wife wouldn't be able to reef or hoist a sail, tell which direction the wind is coming from or how the sails should therefore be set, or how to tie a clove hitch or bowline despite us sailing together since 1988. She went on a DS theory class a couple of years ago then on the DS practical but the instructor spent a lot of time with her on CC parts as that was her weakness. Asking her to helm to a bouy or marina berth in a 40 foot boat, navigate a rocky channel at night without chartplotter or plan a voyage was child's play to her but she'd always avoided the basics.

So a lot of experience may be limited to the parts that the crew member wanted to take part in leaving the instructor to fill in the gaps that the spouse could not.

Now she knows how to do all those things, but won't, so we have moved on a bit.

Yes, exactly the same with my partner. Her first comment was that she didn't realise how much I did on the boat - until this course she thought that sailing was easy. As a widower for a few years I sailed pretty much solo so the boat was set up for me.

The whole idea of her doing the course was to build her confidence up on all those things she didn't really recognise before as happening. She was embarrassed in Lagos when she couldn't tie a fender on, for example. I had always left her on the helm and got the boat ready until the final moves onto the pontoon.

She was classic cc material. Loves sailing but needs someone not her partner to teach her. And I am a rubbish teacher (ex academic).

 

[dgadee]

If she has sailed around the north of scotland and all the way to the costa del sol, I'm not sure what more she would expect to learn on a cc course! She will be miles overqualified in experience for that already. Might have been better doing the ds, she might learn more and then she can argue with you about your decisions

Ha! She argues constantly as it is. As we go into a berth you hear a constant stream of commands which are best ignored.

 

[Uricanejack]

I think tutor is not up to it. Partner has been round North of Scotland and sailed all the way to Costa del Sol and loves helming for hours on end. She wants off her boat now. Tutor's smoking made her seasick for the first time in her life today (latest WhatsApp ...)

DS would not be feasible - I've never met anyone with less sense of direction in my life. And that wasn't her goal - it was simply to be able to do more things on our boat.

Still, looking for the silver lining, she might pay more attention to my instructions in future! Less lip would be welcome.

Unfortunate she is not enjoying it. Wouldn’t be surprised if she is right about the attention to the other girl. Women notice these things.
Probably the difrent levels of the course mean difrent attention from the instructor and as relatively experienced for an entry level course. She appears to need less help. So gets less attention.

Not a very good service from the sailing school.

If I ever do a RYA course or send someone on an RYA course. One question I will certainly ask. Is everyone on the boat doing the same standard course.
If not I will use a school which runs a dedicated course to all the candidates.

If you don’t want to sail with smokers come to Canada. Work place regulations it’s not allowed.
In fact it’s so unacceptable here now I probably wouldn’t have thought to ask. I would complain. I know now in the UK to ask about the sailing schools policy on smoking.

If smoking is allowed. I will go else where. I used to tolerate it now I realize I don’t have to.

 

[Uricanejack]

After reading this thread I think I know not to book my wife in for a Competant Crew Course.
I just accept, I sail the boat, she gets to do what she feels like if she feels like it. She professes to know nothing, refuses to learn anything. Particularly if I try and teach her

When other people sail with us. She is quite happy to tell them how to furl, unfurl, hoist, sails,reef, tack, gybe, steer, anchor,
Or many other tasks she lets me do.

Oh well at least she comes with me

 

[Uricanejack]

Ha! She argues constantly as it is. As we go into a berth you hear a constant stream of commands which are best ignored.

Sound familiar

 

[JumbleDuck]

Not really. The YM candidates will give instruction and advice to the CC. That the instructor is concentrating on, and I'm sure advising, them is perfectly reasonable and perhaps explains why 120 hours of training on 150k-ish piece of plant with accomodation and food thrown in can be had for around £600. How much does 8 hours training on a £500 PC with Excel cost?

Hmm. Not sure about your sums. A five day course is 120 hours in total, but 40 of those will be spent asleep and the remaining 80 divided fours ways, so that's actually 20 hours for £600. My local IT centre charges £50 for eight hours of classes.

I agree with you that (even with my reduced figures for teaching hours) six hundred quid isn't too bad. However. I don't think it should be the YM candidates' role to teach things to the lower orders, or at least if it is the lower orders should be paying a lot less for their week.

 

[lw395]

....However. I don't think it should be the YM candidates' role to teach things to the lower orders, or at least if it is the lower orders should be paying a lot less for their week.

Would you want a YM in charge of your boat, if they weren't capable of organising and mentoring some minions to operate it?
How is a YM candidate supposed to demonstrate their competence at managing a crew if the boat is packed with people more experienced than them?

 

[Uricanejack]

Would you want a YM in charge of your boat, if they weren't capable of organising and mentoring some minions to operate it?
How is a YM candidate supposed to demonstrate their competence at managing a crew if the boat is packed with people more experienced than them?

I think the point he is making which if I was parting with my hard earned money, I would agree with. If I pay for instruction from an instructor I expect instruction from an instructor. Not a candidate for another course. So for comp crew I have no interest in what a YM is doing, Or a DS. Certainly I would not be interested in paying for my wife,son or daughter to be some DS or YMs go for or minions.