Can classic boats have bow-thrusters?

[rosewood]

I didn't mean to suggest anyone was overstepping their rights, by doing whatever they see fit on their own boat.

But, putting an electric labour-saver on a boat which is inherently all about learning & exercising laborious processes of maintenance & use, makes no sense to me.

What kind of person embraces all the care which wooden boat-ownership necessitates - the inevitable scraping, searching, analysis of damage or ingress of water, and the slow sourcing and securing of replacement timbers or whatever long-learned traditional cure can be incorporated - and accepts that each year will always mean more of the same...

...but, when it comes to actually going sailing and shifting the boat from her berth, he suddenly becomes impatient with the awkward requirements of this old lady, as if he's the type who wouldn't put up with such inconvenience? Wouldn't bow-thruster-man also have chosen a boat which didn't need any traditional time and effort expended on her?

Easy to visualise the thinking of a man who embraces all the ease which modernity allows; and equally, of the man who refuses to adopt any such plastic-age convenience. But who would pick and choose to do all those tiring winter jobs, then forego learning basic close-quarters handling?

I feel ashamed but I do use an electric sander

 

[pyrojames]

Is Gypsy Moth 3 still a classic boat?

She has a bow thruster, much to my dismay!

 

[Barleycorn]

Somebody mentioned using a trolling motor when I asked about fitting a bow thruster on my Aguastar 27. (After I got a good slagging for being incompetent at boat handling!). I bought one off eBay and fit it to the bathing platform on leaving my berth and it works very well. My boat simply will not steer to starboard in reverse, and it is too tight with other boats to be faffing around.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

I think that it is very presumptuous for anyone to assume that all people who fit a bow-thruster are incapable of handling a boat properly.

I also think that it is time to put my money where my mouth is. Here is the scenario:

My boat is a Centurion 32; whether that counts as a modern 'classic' is irrelevant. She is a lovely boat and sails beautifully. Unfortunately, the propeller is left-handed and is offset towards the port quarter. My berth is stern-to on a pontoon (no fingers). Distance from my pulpit to the pulpit of the boats on the next pontoon is around 60 feet. She is in the 6th berth from the shore on the starboard side and to get to the fairway I need to turn to port as soon as I clear my berth. I am usually sailing single-handed.

Here is my proposal:

Anyone of the 'experts' who can berth / unberth my boat, stern-to and single-handed for three times in succession - without causing any damage - is welcome to have free use of my boat for a week. When he fails, he buys me a bottle of Vodka.

I was 67 last December and I have been on boats practically since I learned how to walk. I have never made a claim on my insurance, nor have I ever caused damage to another boat, not even when I used to race dinghies.

Your call.

 

[Greenheart]

Just wondering, because I don't know...how did Centurion 32 owners manoeuvre these attractive yachts before they had the option to fit and use bow-thrusters?

I can see that a thruster allows a difficult hull/prop/rudder combination into tighter berths than might have been possible without one. Has the advent of tight-packed marinas required bow thrusters? If so, I s'pose the thruster is simply obligatory equipment for an environment which long-keelers weren't designed to work within.

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Just wondering, because I don't know...how did Centurion 32 owners manoeuvre these attractive yachts before they had the option to fit and use bow-thrusters?

I can see that a thruster allows a difficult hull/prop/rudder combination into tighter berths than might have been possible without one. Has the advent of tight-packed marinas required bow thrusters? If so, I s'pose the thruster is simply obligatory equipment for an environment which long-keelers weren't designed to work within.

That, I believe, is the truth of the matter. In my particular case there is also the factor of the berth location in the sense that I need to turn to port as soon as I am clear of my neighbour, plus that the prevailing wind is usually across the bows from NNW straight onto my port side. If there is any breeze blowing the only way to get out of the berth is to hang on to my neighbour's pulpit until the boat turns and points in the right direction, then a dash back to the cockpit to engage ahead: not elegant and certainly not very easy when alone. Fortunately the boat to port is a forty-seven footer while the one to starboard is a little Folkboat type; this allows my stern to be kept clear. How I miss the swinging moorings of when I was younger!

 

[Greenheart]

How I miss the swinging moorings of when I was younger!

Indeed. No shame at all in your using a thruster - I daresay it'd be reckless to attempt such a tight spot without one.

Traditional yachts can only have been expected to need enough close-quarters manoeuverability for traditional moorings.

So...on that basis, I must conclude there's nothing wrong with bow-thrusters on any boat which needs one...although, I have to say, I'm no great fan of marinas, either!

 

[rosewood]

I think that it is very presumptuous for anyone to assume that all people who fit a bow-thruster are incapable of handling a boat properly.

I also think that it is time to put my money where my mouth is. Here is the scenario:

My boat is a Centurion 32; whether that counts as a modern 'classic' is irrelevant. She is a lovely boat and sails beautifully. Unfortunately, the propeller is left-handed and is offset towards the port quarter. My berth is stern-to on a pontoon (no fingers). Distance from my pulpit to the pulpit of the boats on the next pontoon is around 60 feet. She is in the 6th berth from the shore on the starboard side and to get to the fairway I need to turn to port as soon as I clear my berth. I am usually sailing single-handed.

Here is my proposal:

Anyone of the 'experts' who can berth / unberth my boat, stern-to and single-handed for three times in succession - without causing any damage - is welcome to have free use of my boat for a week. When he fails, he buys me a bottle of Vodka.

I was 67 last December and I have been on boats practically since I learned how to walk. I have never made a claim on my insurance, nor have I ever caused damage to another boat, not even when I used to race dinghies.

Your call.

+1. Too right. I am in a similar position with the added benefit of a wheel fixed to the rear bulkhead so it looks like the wheel is backward. A gear stick coming up out of the floor, and a seperate throttle. I need four hands when manoeuvring in a tight spot. I could never have a bow thruster but I still think my boat would be a hillyard 9 ton if I had one. There is a certain satisfaction knowing how the prop kicks etc and putting her where I want. It's just that now and then I really wish I had a thruster fitted

 

[chinita]

Indeed. No shame at all in your using a thruster - I daresay it'd be reckless to attempt such a tight spot without one.

Traditional yachts can only have been expected to need enough close-quarters manoeuverability for traditional moorings.

So...on that basis, I must conclude there's nothing wrong with bow-thrusters on any boat which needs one...although, I have to say, I'm no great fan of marinas, either!

''Reckless" - RECKLESS!!! for heavens sake. So taking a MAB into a marina without a bowthruster is "reckless"! Good Lord, we will be asking for a couple of ocean going tugs to get us up the main channel next.

 

[chal]

Ah, a proper argument at last - people have mostly been so nice on this forum so far

Basically agree with the sentiments of post 44. I don't have a bow thruster, but the boat lives on a swinging mooring and that works fine for us: I have seen people with modern and more manoeuverable boats than ours have far more difficulty picking up the mooring than we generally do.

I make no claims whatsoever for my boat handling skills and I know they could be much better. The problem with the sort of close quarters manoeuvering required in tightly packed modern marinas is partly that the boat simply isn't designed to do it: it's a bit like trying to reverse-park an articulated lorry in a side street, and partly that it is almost impossible to practise - Chal weighs some 8 or 9 tons and has a very tough bowsprit that cannot be fully retracted and hitting a neighbouring boat with it could be quite ugly.

There will always be a debate about what you can and cannot fit to a classic boat. I doubt I will ever be able to afford to fit a bow thruster so it's probably not a decision I will have to make. It's true you can't still buy leaded paint but you can buy flax sails and hemp rope but I don't see a lot of people using them. If the tooth fairy came along and offered me a bow thruster I'm sure I'd accept: at least it's an invisible modernisation.

Anyone here listen to Bach played on the piano?

 

[Greenheart]

''Reckless" - RECKLESS!!! for heavens sake. So taking a MAB into a marina without a bowthruster is "reckless"! Good Lord, we will be asking for a couple of ocean going tugs to get us up the main channel next.

Okay Chinita, I'll tag you in, because I'm not arguing any more. I started this thread because I genuinely couldn't understand why the type of person who accepts all the trouble a wooden boat represents, would nevertheless reject the old-time handling inconvenience which the same hull creates...

...but it seems from reading here, that the problem isn't skippers' incapacity at the controls, it's the thoroughly unnatural manoeuvers required by restrictive marina berths...

...so on that basis, any boat of any age which is kept in a narrow marina berth, may (according to its skipper's opinion) need extra help getting in, shorthanded.

If you want to say that's not the case, argue with the people who fit thrusters. I don't like thrusters, but I don't like marinas either - they're the reason people need thrusters.

If the berth means the skipper needs a thruster, it's his choice of berth which is questionable, not his modifications for getting in and out without bashing other boats.

Enjoy.

Anyone here listen to Bach played on the piano?

Toccata and feud?

 

[chal]

Toccata and feud?

Like it! I'd quite enjoy a bit of Well-tempered Gaffer myself :ambivalence:

 

[Greenheart]

I couldn't Handel that.

 

[chinita]

Having considered all the arguments here I have reconsidered the situation and decided to move into the 21st Century. I thank dancrane for his assistance in this enlightenment.

I spent hours searching hundreds of back copies of CB Magazine but can't find any of these thruster thingies. In desperation I googled it and discovered that they run on something called 'electricity'.

Does anybody know where I can find a paraffin or lamp oil powered one?

 

[Greenheart]

I cautiously welcome your words, Chinita. I've never been involved in anyone's enlightenment before.

Perhaps we ought to establish the idea of the Classic Bowthruster, here on the Classic forum? Paraffin or lamp oil, or even coal-fired. Or, hang on a minute...

...I wonder if, between the V-berths in the fo'c'sle, it would be possible to rig up the frame of a bicycle facing astern, with the pedals geared up to a bow-thruster?

As you head into the marina, send SWMBO down to the forecabin and make sure she leaves all the doors open...

...then bellow down the companionway, "Forward...forward!...Back a bit...more...come on woman, let rip..."

She'll really appreciate being made to feel involved.

 

[chal]

To power it with paraffin perhaps you should boil up a huge quantity of water with the paraffin, lamp oil, or whatever, and then dump it over, say, the port bow in order to decrease the density of the water there, thus causing the denser water on the starboard bow to push the boat around. And no need to disfigure the hull

 

[Greenheart]

Or, maybe a steam-engined jetski, positioned on the foredeck, with valves allowing the squirter to point through port and starboard hoses beneath the yacht's waterline? :biggrin-new:

 

[chinita]

What brilliance!

Not only Classicists but Rocket Surgeons as well. Seriously impressed.

 

[pyrojames]

Okay Chinita, I'll tag you in, because I'm not arguing any more. I started this thread because I genuinely couldn't understand why the type of person who accepts all the trouble a wooden boat represents, would nevertheless reject the old-time handling inconvenience which the same hull creates...

...but it seems from reading here, that the problem isn't skippers' incapacity at the controls, it's the thoroughly unnatural manoeuvers required by restrictive marina berths...

Toccata and feud?

I am not sure that modern marinas are any worse than old working harbours. St Katherine Docks, Ramsgate, Whitby to name a few. Picture of working boats under sail on the Thames, with congestion that far exceeds anything we have nowdays. Extra hands and warping was par for the course. I guess the bowtthruster could be regarded as your extra hand, along with the autopilot, but warping remains my prefered marina close quarters method. (small offset prop, long keel etc)

 

[chal]

I am not sure that modern marinas are any worse than old working harbours ... with congestion that far exceeds anything we have nowdays. Extra hands and warping was par for the course.

I'm sure you are right, but they were harbours full of other working boats, not beautifully maintained yachts where the slightest scratch can cause major fury on the part of the proud owner. I've seen similar pictures of very crowded waterways with boats looking like there must be quite a number of bumps and dents, and nobody has a fender in sight. I read that the yard that made my boat charged extra for building smacks with galvanised nails and most fisherman chose not to bother, because the ordinary iron nails would do for the approx 15-20 year expected lifespan of the boat; within the context of a working boat, a few dings and gouges were probably par for the course, and something you slapped a bit more paint on as necessary.

I know it's not quite this simple, but I think genuinely old boats fall roughly into 2 categories: those like mine where I struggle to do the best I can on a more-or-less shoestring budget, and those where the owners lavish money and care in equal measure. I posted a link on the "What's a Classic" thread to a couple of boats so expensively restored that there is hardly a plank of the original boat left. Under such circumstances, adding a bow thruster probably doesn't matter much, as it could always be removed in future and any damage once again made good.

I'll probably continue with whatever I can get by with!

Can't think of anything else to add so better get back to marking exam papers