Calorifier connections

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icarusbop

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Hello

Following on from my preivous thread ( http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?419879-Calorifier-orientation&p=5130726#post5130726)
(P.S I did post a thanks to everyone who responded, but I've just discovered it didn't show up on the thread- sorry about that!)

I am hoping to relocate my calorifier from inside the engine bay. Testing has shown it does not work horizontally, but I have found a better location for it, where it will sit vertically.
It is further away and therefore will need approxmiatemy 5m extra pipe to connect the engine; so, including the return pipe, the piping will increase by approximately 10m.

Are there are recommendation on which piping to use? The old system was connected to the engine via rubber hose, but a colleague has suggested plastic (e.g. speedfit) may work just as well and be potentiall easier to fit and cheaper to supply?

Will this extra length of pipe (water friction on the insides) and extra water required to fill the pipes , pose a problem for the engine water pump?

Thanks

Ian
 
If you are relocating it above the engine fresh cooling water level then a header tank will need to be fitted above the cooling water level in the calorifier so as to completely fill the system.
 
icarusbop said:
Are there are recommendation on which piping to use? The old system was connected to the engine via rubber hose, but a colleague has suggested plastic (e.g. speedfit) may work just as well and be potentiall easier to fit and cheaper to supply?
Click to expand...

That's hot coolant in there (and the return will be hot once the domestic water has heated up). I wouldn't use anything that wasn't to similar spec to your engine hoses.
 
In addition to macd's point, most calorifier and engine connections are 16 mm bore. I don't think speedfit comes as big as that. I would stick to the correct stuff, particularly as in most cases there will be significant bends and difficult holes to negotiate. Adding 10 metres may increase system pressure above what the engine's circulating pump can cope with (assuming an indirectly cooled engine). You may need to add a booster pump in the circuit. I have done this with my motor-sailer, where the calorifier is at head height in the boat, well over a metre above the engine. Adding an air bleed valve, a simple device sold by any plumbing supplier, means that a header tank above the calorifier is not needed.

Some info on the subject on my website under engines.
 
Thanks to all for responsees.
I've looked up speedfit and the max working temp is 104 degress, and at this, the pressure it can take is severly reduced, so I've already decided so go with original rubber hose. As you said - it's easier to route anyway.

Good idea with the airbleed valve - it will save problems getting the system full of water.

vuv_cox = how would I go about adding a supplemental pump into the system - are they electric and work from pressure for example? (like the water supply pumps)

Thanks

Ian
 
icarusbop said:
vuv_cox = how would I go about adding a supplemental pump into the system - are they electric and work from pressure for example? (like the water supply pumps)

Thanks

Ian
Click to expand...

I take it you didn't look at my website?
Equipment needed is the calorifier, hoses, and a circulation pump. The pump to use was the Johnson C010P5-1, 12 Volt, 16mm ports, part number 10-35159-3 from Aquafax or T. Norris. This pump has now been uprated to a CM10 magnetically driven version, Johnson part number 10-24501-03. Note that although its duty is stated to be fresh water, it performs well and reliably with seawater. A useful alternative may be the heater pumps fitted to Mercedes and Jaguar cars, frequently for sale very cheaply in on-line auction sites.

I bought a Jaguar heater electric circulation pump on Ebay, cost £25 I think. Insert it into a hose at the lowest point in the system to avoid priming problems.
 
pvb said:
If an extra circulation pump is needed, it would be in a freshwater-cooled engine, surely?
Click to expand...

The quote I posted is actually from the section on running a calorifier with a seawater cooled engine. With that arrangement an additional pump is always required, it circulates hot water from the top of the engine's jacket to the bottom.
 
vyv_cox said:
The quote I posted is actually from the section on running a calorifier with a seawater cooled engine. With that arrangement an additional pump is always required, it circulates hot water from the top of the engine's jacket to the bottom.
Click to expand...

I didn't look at your website either!:D
 
All very well adding a bleed valve but when the engine and calorifier are full of water as any half baked schoolboy that has taken some attention of his physics lessons you will know that a liquid, unlike a gas will not compress hence, when the coolant expands some will be blown out. The purpose of the header tank is to provide an air buffer to take up this expansion.
 
third engines said:
All very well adding a bleed valve but when the engine and calorifier are full of water as any half baked schoolboy that has taken some attention of his physics lessons you will know that a liquid, unlike a gas will not compress hence, when the coolant expands some will be blown out. The purpose of the header tank is to provide an air buffer to take up this expansion.
Click to expand...

I don't think Vyv's suggesting dispensing with the header tank entirely, just that with the bleed valve it doesn't have to be mounted higher than the calorifier.

Pete
 
prv said:
I don't think Vyv's suggesting dispensing with the header tank entirely, just that with the bleed valve it doesn't have to be mounted higher than the calorifier.

Pete
Click to expand...

Exactly. The bleed valve has a float in it so that air bleeds out but once the coolant has reached it the valve closes. The screwed cap then needs to be tightened to prevent air from flowing back in when the engine stops. The loop up to the calorifier is now closed and coolant remains in it permanently, as any half baked schoolboy who has paid attention to his physics lessons knows. The header tank/heat exchanger on the engine then works exactly as it is intended to do.
 
vyv_cox said:
I take it you didn't look at my website?
Equipment needed is the calorifier, hoses, and a circulation pump...
I bought a Jaguar heater electric circulation pump on Ebay, cost £25 I think. Insert it into a hose at the lowest point in the system to avoid priming problems.
Click to expand...

You are right I hadn't looked at your website, but now have - it's a great site, full of useful info - I've added it to my bookmarks.
Presumably I would need to connect this pump so that is is powered when the engine is running.
How does this system work out, since the chance of the extra pump and the engine pump pumping at the same rate is zero? We now have a cirulatory system with two different speed pumps in the same circuit?
 
icarusbop said:
You are right I hadn't looked at your website, but now have - it's a great site, full of useful info - I've added it to my bookmarks.
Presumably I would need to connect this pump so that is is powered when the engine is running.
How does this system work out, since the chance of the extra pump and the engine pump pumping at the same rate is zero? We now have a cirulatory system with two different speed pumps in the same circuit?
Click to expand...

Yes, it's just a booster pump, wired to the ignition switch to come on when the engine runs. It's exactly the same in Jaguar and Mercedes cars.
 
o
icarusbop said:
Hello

Following on from my preivous thread ( http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthread.php?419879-Calorifier-orientation&p=5130726#post5130726)
(P.S I did post a thanks to everyone who responded, but I've just discovered it didn't show up on the thread- sorry about that!)

I am hoping to relocate my calorifier from inside the engine bay. Testing has shown it does not work horizontally, but I have found a better location for it, where it will sit vertically.
It is further away and therefore will need approxmiatemy 5m extra pipe to connect the engine; so, including the return pipe, the piping will increase by approximately 10m.

Are there are recommendation on which piping to use? The old system was connected to the engine via rubber hose, but a colleague has suggested plastic (e.g. speedfit) may work just as well and be potentiall easier to fit and cheaper to supply?

Will this extra length of pipe (water friction on the insides) and extra water required to fill the pipes , pose a problem for the engine water pump?

Thanks

Ian
Click to expand...
Be careful with your choice of materials for the pipe. Ours gets v hot from the fresh water cooled system. Hot enough that the Bene supplied pipe gets soft enough to blow off the connection!
S
 
skipper_stu said:
o
Be careful with your choice of materials for the pipe. Ours gets v hot from the fresh water cooled system. Hot enough that the Bene supplied pipe gets soft enough to blow off the connection!
S
Click to expand...

Reinforced plastic pipe (even the red one recommended for hot water) is evil stuff, as anyone who has had the contents of their freshwater tank pumped into the bilges will testify.
It's best to use black reinforced rubber, as supplied for hydraulic circuits for the engine calorifier connection.
My system has no header tank, specific to the calorifier system, the overflow tank supplied with the engine works just fine. It is higher than the calorifier when on starboard tack - a point not covered in my physics lessons 70 years ago.
 
I used heater hose from my local motor factor which comes in the right size. I reckoned if it was good enough for modern car engines it's good enough for boats.
 
PetiteFleur said:
I used heater hose from my local motor factor which comes in the right size. I reckoned if it was good enough for modern car engines it's good enough for boats.
Click to expand...

+1. My installation has the calorifier at quite a distance from the engine, plus I added a heater for the helmsman's feet. I bought a 10 metre roll of 16 mm heater hose from an Ebay supplier.
 
icarusbop said:
It is further away and therefore will need approxmiatemy 5m extra pipe to connect the engine; so, including the return pipe, the piping will increase by approximately 10m.

Are there are recommendation on which piping to use? The old system was connected to the engine via rubber hose, but a colleague has suggested plastic (e.g. speedfit) may work just as well and be potentiall easier to fit and cheaper to supply?

Will this extra length of pipe (water friction on the insides) and extra water required to fill the pipes , pose a problem for the engine water pump?
Click to expand...

Calorifier on my boat is about 5m away from the engine. No extra pump is fitted. It just relies on the freshwater cooling pump on the engine. That's the as-built arrangement of 1992 and it is still working with no known problems now.
 
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