Juan Twothree
Well-Known Member
The PLA limit is at the eastern entrance to the Fisherman's Gat.
Calling London VTS For Permission to Cross Black Deep
- Thread starter PaulRainbow
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LittleSister
Well-Known Member
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
But note the VTS Reporting Limit, and London Pilotage District extends beyond (see diagrammatic chart above).
Quite what the legal significance of that is, I don't know, but I would assume we would all want to be as cooperative as possible with an authority with responsibility for safely shepherding a lot of shipping through challenging waters.
I welcome the fact that the Authority has taken the trouble to make a clarifying amendment to the Regs., avoiding confusion and unnecessarily onerous reporting requirements on us minnows.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
The Bye-Laws include the Pilotage Area. It is possble to trace the lawful authority via the Act of Parliament, Statutory Instruments and Bye-Laws if you really want to know.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
Yesterday We made fools of ourselves in that area. I was persuaded by my crew to try the SW sunk crossing. Which i truly hate.
We did not have the latest set of waypoints but the previous set & tried to motor through at half tide. Wind was 20 Kts gusting 25kts. Trying to helm a course in these conditions was difficult so I set it on my grid compas & stared at that, struggling with the tiller with both hands, whilst my crew confirmed if i was on the plotter track & my son read the depths
We were coming from the Black deep & hit the first wypt spot on Just as we approached the second waypoint we ran out of water so I turned hard to port expecting deaper water. Crunch we ran aground. Fortunately we bounced of & I ran the reciprocal course on my compass grid & left that horrible place. We went up the middle of the Black deep untill 1.8 miles past BD No5 turned 309 deg & crossed the sunk with at least 4 m under the keel all the way to Barrow No 2. Easy and with no plotter as no course set.
Then encountered 2 coaster coming out of the Thames
So if the PLA wanted to moan about yachties farting about in the Black Deep they had a good opportunity
We did not have the latest set of waypoints but the previous set & tried to motor through at half tide. Wind was 20 Kts gusting 25kts. Trying to helm a course in these conditions was difficult so I set it on my grid compas & stared at that, struggling with the tiller with both hands, whilst my crew confirmed if i was on the plotter track & my son read the depths
We were coming from the Black deep & hit the first wypt spot on Just as we approached the second waypoint we ran out of water so I turned hard to port expecting deaper water. Crunch we ran aground. Fortunately we bounced of & I ran the reciprocal course on my compass grid & left that horrible place. We went up the middle of the Black deep untill 1.8 miles past BD No5 turned 309 deg & crossed the sunk with at least 4 m under the keel all the way to Barrow No 2. Easy and with no plotter as no course set.
Then encountered 2 coaster coming out of the Thames
So if the PLA wanted to moan about yachties farting about in the Black Deep they had a good opportunity
CrossedThreads
Well-Known Member
For anybody that finds this worrying (I can imagine how worried I would have been in your situation), I travelled through the SW Sunk (using the 2024 WPTs) last week at 1.5 hours after low water and never saw less than 3.3m of depth.
Fortunately for me the wind was negligible and no swell so I was comfortable with only 1.3m under the keel.
In rougher conditions and with a bigger swell, I would definitely want a bigger margin for error.
For reference navionics suggested that at the time I crossed the SW Sunk, Whitaker Beacon had a tidal height of 1.3m predicted.
Fortunately for me the wind was negligible and no swell so I was comfortable with only 1.3m under the keel.
In rougher conditions and with a bigger swell, I would definitely want a bigger margin for error.
For reference navionics suggested that at the time I crossed the SW Sunk, Whitaker Beacon had a tidal height of 1.3m predicted.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
What worried me most that I had decided that I would turn left towards deaper water as shown on the chart when it showed 200 below my 1.80 draft That is when i hit bottom. I was smack on the way pts. But thinking about it the waypt formed a dog leg an did so because the sands had shifted & I should have turned to stbd.A couple of years ago I saw 2-40 ft plus yachts run aground & needed the RNLI -plus my mate in a bilge keeler damaged his rudder & skeg at the same time
LittleSister
Well-Known Member
I think skimming through shoal waters, and even going aground, is great fun, but doing so in rough conditions is asking for trouble.
Those sandbanks don't seem at all bothersome, apart from a little inconvenience, with GPS, detailed charts, fine weather and daylight, but they are seriously treacherous otherwise. Many lives and boats have been lost of them. Treat them with respect.
Those sandbanks don't seem at all bothersome, apart from a little inconvenience, with GPS, detailed charts, fine weather and daylight, but they are seriously treacherous otherwise. Many lives and boats have been lost of them. Treat them with respect.
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
I did that when the earlier discussion was alive to see whether there was a wrinkle
Poecheng
Well-Known Member
As in #18, the wording is important and R17(5) provides:
"Except for Pleasure Vessels crossing the Black Deep, Vessels with an Operating Draught of less than 6.0 metres must not use the Black Deep Channel without the permission of London VTS."
I seem to recall the earlier direction/instructions requiring a 90 degree to the traffic passage but I may be wrong on that score.
This new Direction (i) doesn't specify any particular place of crossing or (ii) specify the manner of crossing ie at what angle to the general traffic. I have searched the entire GDs and the Port of London Act 1968 for the words 'cross' and 'crossing' and there is no definition within the GD. Crossing therefore has its ordinary meaning.
Therefore, I believe we are almost all back to where we thought we were, except that we cannot go up and down the BD (that isn't itself 'crossing') to any extent without permission. But as long as when we are in BD itself we are obviously crossing then I consider we are ok. Therefore I see no difficulty in exiting Foulgers and heading NE (across BD) for the CTE waypoint for crossing the Sunk and thence over near to Barrow No.2.
NB: this is all subject to COLREG Rule 9(b) and particularly (d):
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
Before I knew about this, we came through the windfarm on Sunday 24th August, I called up the GV Pheonix to see what was going on, was told to give the Leonardo da Vinci (?) 500m clearance so we went parallel to the BD in a NE direction but within the first row of windmills and then cut across towards the NE of Barrow no.2 so that we were crossing pretty much perpendicular to the traffic.
"Except for Pleasure Vessels crossing the Black Deep, Vessels with an Operating Draught of less than 6.0 metres must not use the Black Deep Channel without the permission of London VTS."
I seem to recall the earlier direction/instructions requiring a 90 degree to the traffic passage but I may be wrong on that score.
This new Direction (i) doesn't specify any particular place of crossing or (ii) specify the manner of crossing ie at what angle to the general traffic. I have searched the entire GDs and the Port of London Act 1968 for the words 'cross' and 'crossing' and there is no definition within the GD. Crossing therefore has its ordinary meaning.
Therefore, I believe we are almost all back to where we thought we were, except that we cannot go up and down the BD (that isn't itself 'crossing') to any extent without permission. But as long as when we are in BD itself we are obviously crossing then I consider we are ok. Therefore I see no difficulty in exiting Foulgers and heading NE (across BD) for the CTE waypoint for crossing the Sunk and thence over near to Barrow No.2.
NB: this is all subject to COLREG Rule 9(b) and particularly (d):
(d) A vessel shall not cross a narrow channel or fairway if such crossing impedes the passage of a vessel which can safely navigate only within such channel or fairway. The latter vessel may use the sound signal prescribed in Rule 34(d) if in doubt as to the intention of the crossing vessel.
Before I knew about this, we came through the windfarm on Sunday 24th August, I called up the GV Pheonix to see what was going on, was told to give the Leonardo da Vinci (?) 500m clearance so we went parallel to the BD in a NE direction but within the first row of windmills and then cut across towards the NE of Barrow no.2 so that we were crossing pretty much perpendicular to the traffic.
tillergirl
Well-Known Member
Poecheng, you are correct. The HM encourages us to cross at right angles to the channel. Actually if at the right tide across from the Little Sunk to Foulgers and ice versa can be pretty much at right angles. We send in the Little and SW Sunk data to the PLA (they like that so they know us exactly where we cross to and from. The issue of 'lateral' use might arise from an occasion when racing yachts were tacking along the BD in from of a container ship!
To DB: your description suggests you used a very old wpt. Gladys and I do the SW Sunk each year as earlier as possible because the swatch moves at least 100m each year. The of each annual survey is to update it. For this year, the 2024 wpts remained fine. Next year perhaps not. If you had used an old wpt at the centre, a turn left was predictable! Unfortunately some people have marked out of date wpts there and I have no ability to alter it. Please use the download and check on it each year. You then never will have a problem. I think you did well to get to the wpt given the conditions on the day.
To DB: your description suggests you used a very old wpt. Gladys and I do the SW Sunk each year as earlier as possible because the swatch moves at least 100m each year. The of each annual survey is to update it. For this year, the 2024 wpts remained fine. Next year perhaps not. If you had used an old wpt at the centre, a turn left was predictable! Unfortunately some people have marked out of date wpts there and I have no ability to alter it. Please use the download and check on it each year. You then never will have a problem. I think you did well to get to the wpt given the conditions on the day.
Daydream believer
Well-Known Member
You are dead right. I was an idiot but I thought I was using 2024 wypts. I also thought that my crew _ who had just come back from 2 atlantic crossings- had compared the wypts as he had all your new ones. But he uses Raymarine I have Garmin
Personally I hate relying on plotters & went through the other crossing with ease with my compass log & echo sounder just looked for BD 5 went 1.7 miles & turned 309 deg to barrow 2
It was so easy I should have done it straight off