Caernarfon Harbour Trust

[Searush]

TBH, berthing in the River Seoint, I would be happy to pay (& have done so already) if we had a few facilities. There is one water pipe & no electric feeds on the slate quay. There is no power or toilets for the boats in the "secure" storage & our dinghy store leaks like a sieve & the security code seems to be known by every scrote in the area.

The management of resources is minimal to say the least, they are utterly complacent & answerable only to their Trustees - which is a closed shop. AFAIK, there are no representatives of any boating interests or their service users on the Trustee board. Many locals are unhappy with their apparent arrogance too.

We need to get a copy of the Charities Commision Articles for CHT. That will specify their objectives & we can complain to the Charities Commision if we can show that they are not meeting those objectives. THAT would stir 'em up a bit as they would be at risk of losing their charitable status.

BTW, Kwaka, they survey the Bar several times a year, move the buoys as necessary & issue mini-charts & tide tables that I find very helpful. You have also forgotten the Swing bridge on the river & the cill on Victoria Dock need maintenance from time to time. And they do own the car park, but I think it is leased to the Council to run it. Who polices the speed limits?

Now i'm for it!

 

[Major Catastrophe]

TBH, berthing in the River Seoint, I would be happy to pay (& have done so already) if we had a few facilities. There is one water pipe & no electric feeds on the slate quay. There is no power or toilets for the boats in the "secure" storage & our dinghy store leaks like a sieve & the security code seems to be known by every scrote in the area.

I don't think your harbour dues go towards those facilities, you pay your mooring fee to cover them.

Like us, we pay harbour dues to float on CHT's water and benefit from their marks, but pay PD berthing charges for their facilities.

The management of resources is minimal to say the least, they are utterly complacent & answerable only to their Trustees - which is a closed shop. AFAIK, there are no representatives of any boating interests or their service users on the Trustee board. Many locals are unhappy with their apparent arrogance too.

And that is one of my biggest concerns. I was told (Heresay) that they even hire a boat every year, toddle off to Menai Bridge pier and go ashore for a slap up feed. I can find no list of who is on the board, what they do, how much they are paid/claim, what time they devote to the trust, their attendance record and who exactly they think they represent.

I am composing a letter to the secretary of state who has responsibility for harbour trusts for a enquiry into its affairs as the secrecy and closed shop is not in the interest if the 'customers'.

We need to get a copy of the Charities Commision Articles for CHT. That will specify their objectives & we can complain to the Charities Commision if we can show that they are not meeting those objectives. THAT would stir 'em up a bit as they would be at risk of losing their charitable status.

No such record as they have not yet got charitable status.

BTW, Kwaka, they survey the Bar several times a year, move the buoys as necessary & issue mini-charts & tide tables that I find very helpful. You have also forgotten the Swing bridge on the river & the cill on Victoria Dock need maintenance from time to time. And they do own the car park, but I think it is leased to the Council to run it. Who polices the speed limits?

Yes, they survey the bar, that is their job. The management of the buoys went to pot when they didn't have a boat and now they have bought the 'monstrosity' which seems to reflect their sense of self importance rather than the necessity.

As to the speed limits, PD and the river fairway, that is policed by CHT. They keep a boat in PD which is out every weekend during 'the season' and a good job it does, but maybe they need to actually issue some fines as the commercial boats and some of the Deganwy gin palaces seem to ignore the 5 knot buoys.

The swing bridge, I was led to understand, is council owned and maintained. I was told that to put the bridge there they had to give boats priority if they wanted passage, hence the blasts on the horn being met by almost instant opening.

 

[Searush]

(snip)
The swing bridge, I was led to understand, is council owned and maintained. I was told that to put the bridge there they had to give boats priority if they wanted passage, hence the blasts on the horn being met by almost instant opening.

You haven't tried entering the harbour with a stiff breeze & the tide up the stern then? The bridge men are great when you are leaving, but never hear the horn when you are trying to enter.

You are quite right, they are not a charity! That means there is no control whatsoever over the trustees & it is impossible to get on the trustee board unless invited. And turkeys don't vote for Christmas.

 

[LittleShip]

I am composing a letter to the secretary of state who has responsibility for harbour trusts for a enquiry into its affairs as the secrecy and closed shop is not in the interest if the 'customers'.

Thats the spirit. go for the throat! and while we are at it, how about the fact that you cant get a berth in Canarfon if your English, you have to have a Canarfon address.

Tom

 

[Major Catastrophe]

I may run with this this year, but we need more than four dissenters to force the trust to open its doors, so to speak.

Trouble is, even the 'don't pay until you get the solicitors letter' campaign was stumped by the 'easy lifers'.

I get the impression that some boat owners are actually in fear of the harbour trust and one told me he was frightened of being told to leave the Strait!

What I really want is to be represented on the board of trustees so that my voice can be heard. Obviously, it can't be me as I already have 'history', but there aren't any shortage of volunteers.

I may consider writing a newsletter and distributing it to the PD boat owners and seeing if there really is a will to have things changed. If I wrote to the secretary of state with the concerns, I sure if the letter was signed by 200 odd boat owners, the alarm bells would ring.

But, we have to stop this private club and make them accountable.

 

[Philiz]

Trouble is many of the boats in PD are rarely visited. You'd need to get the addresses of the owners.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Trouble is many of the boats in PD are rarely visited. You'd need to get the addresses of the owners.

I don't need the addresses, I just need to persuade someone who mails them to enclose a folded A4 sheet.

 

[Philiz]

So, how many do you 'best guess' will support a campaign given that many seem to just pay their marina fees out of habit and use their boat when there's a blue moon. Blimey, beginning to sound like HLB!

 

[Searush]

[snip]
Thats the spirit. go for the throat! and while we are at it, how about the fact that you cant get a berth in Canarfon if your English, you have to have a Canarfon address.

Tom

There's no problem in the river, Tom, there are berths vacant there - but I guess you can't take the ground & want the Victoria Dock, which doesn't appear to have any vacancies. However there are a few "English" in there as some of them are members of the RWYC.

Maybe that's the trick, join the RWYC & use Porth yr Aur as your address!

As to "four dissenters" there are many more than that, contact the people at Caernarfon too, you will get some support there. Although there was an attempt to set up a Moorings Association there to deal with the CHT & it miscarried before birth.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Writing this on my iThingy while scoffing a burger in the OK Diner on my way to PD. But the first thing I want to do is raise a petition to the charity commissioners objecting to any application to become charitable trust, at least until this 'secrecy' is resolved and the effectiveness of the individual trustees as trustees of a harbour is answered.
I would also like the purchase of the boat looked into, to make sure it was the most appropriate and cost effective option.

Does anyone know who the trustees are?

 

[Searush]

Check this out a relevant quote is pasted below.

5.—(1) The appointed Trustees shall be appointed as follows—

One by the Gwynedd County Council
Two by the Arfon Borough Council
One by the Ynys Mon Borough Council
One by the Caernarfon Town Council
One by the Welsh Yachting Association
One by the Nature Conservancy Council
One by the Menai Straits Users' Association after consultation with the Port
Dinorwic Private Mooring Licence Holders' Association.

Ok, so no names, but should allow you to track people down. I see PD has a "representative" perhaps you could pin them down for a start. Too many unelected council bods on there for my liking - it explains a lot in my book.

I was employed by a council for a while & I was apalled by its lack of management ability or skills. And worse, they didn't know how bad they were & nor did they care.

here is another quote;

4) Audited accounts shall be published and shall be open to inspection at all reasonable times. Copies shall be available on payment of such charge as the Trustees shall determine.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

That is good stuff there Steve.

I asked via the solicitors for sight of the accounts. Didn't even get a reply.

I will put in a request direct to the harbour master for the accounts and a full list of the trustees.

You would have thought that the names of the trustees would be on the trust's website as a matter of public record. We really do need to know who are the people actually responsible for OUR money.

I have been told some interesting news this evening regarding the boat and the trustees relationship with it, which I am not prepared to discuss on an open forum. But my contact alleges that things are not all that rosy.
Here is the builders page all about the £300,000 boat

 

[Philiz]

Major, I would just like to give you a 'virtual' pat on the back and thank you for the work you have/are putting into this. You have my support and I promise to hold out until the solicitors letter next, sorry, this year.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

5.—(1) The appointed Trustees shall be appointed as follows—

One by the Gwynedd County Council
Two by the Arfon Borough Council
One by the Ynys Mon Borough Council
One by the Caernarfon Town Council
One by the Welsh Yachting Association
One by the Nature Conservancy Council
One by the Menai Straits Users' Association after consultation with the Port
Dinorwic Private Mooring Licence Holders' Association.

In December 2008 Councillor Ioan Thomas was Chair of the Harbour Trust - That's one.

I have found out that the trust owns a hat stand now worth £4,500

This is interesting reading which I will keep for future reference as it lays out the responsibilities of the trustees.

"In particular they will act as completely independent trustees for the benefit of all
stakeholders in the trust including all port users and the local community and will abide
by the principles of good corporate governance set out in this guidance."

For a start, not all port users are represented. PD marina has no voice, yet the trots outside, does.

 

[Major Catastrophe]

Major, I would just like to give you a 'virtual' pat on the back and thank you for the work you have/are putting into this. You have my support and I promise to hold out until the solicitors letter next, sorry, this year.

Phil, you won't get the solicitors letter for this year's dues until January 2011.

Until then, Have a read of this. Published only last May.

 

[Searush]

What a hoot! That report is superb. Can I suggest that you post a copy to them to remind them of their obligations!

1.2.8 Having determined service levels, the board should be able to demonstrate
that it has met these without incurring unreasonable cost. Boards should seek
to obtain value for their stakeholders by:
• challenging the way in which services are provided or obtained and
whether they are needed;
• comparing performance of in-house service provision with external
options and agreeing performance measures derived in conjunction with
users and suppliers on a regular basis;
• consulting all stakeholders (including staff) on current performance,
options for improvement and suitable performance measures and
targets; and
• considering the competitive position (how well does a service bear
comparison with the best available elsewhere? Is there a case for
working in partnership with other providers to obtain good value?).
1.2.9 Users should be consulted about the provision of services and those services
provided in-house should be the subject of market testing to ensure that this is
the best option for the trust port and its stakeholders. The board should be
able clearly to demonstrate in its annual efficiency statement that where it is
providing in-house services, it does so to a standard that does not incur
unnecessary costs for stakeholders, and should, subject to not breaching
commercial confidentiality, justify its commercial decisions clearly.

They MUST have had a copy, I wonder if any of them have actually read it?

Edit; Reading on it recommends PUBLIC ANNUAL MEETINGS. I've not noticed any of those by CHT!

 

[Major Catastrophe]

What a hoot! That report is superb. Can I suggest that you post a copy to them to remind them of their obligations!



They MUST have had a copy, I wonder if any of them have actually read it?

Edit; Reading on it recommends PUBLIC ANNUAL MEETINGS. I've not noticed any of those by CHT!

Ah, they have read it:

This is interesting. The trust has taken steps to comply with the ports modernisation document from the Dept of Transport. But hidden away is a 'Harbour revision order' to extend the harbour limits to include The Swellies.

I wonder if the order was granted.

Basically they have taken steps to 'protect' the new board of trustees: "The Order will also include provisions with respect to the Trust’s constitution including provisions for the co-option of up to two additional Trustees and for the protection of the Trustees from personal liability in the discharge of their functions." which may explain why I was told that allegedly some action has been taken to distance some people from certain decisions.

Mind you, if they are newly appointed trustees, then they have every right to distance themselves from previous trust decisions and maybe the previous trustees must be held to account.

But, I want to make this clear, I don't really care what the trust gets up to, but they cannot keep raising the harbour dues. I am currently going through hundreds of harbour and port trust's websites compiling a spreadsheet of their charges and relative size. So far, CHT is the most expensive....by a long way.

If tiny Caernarfon harbour is that expensive to maintain, or the trust has too high costs, then I have every right as a paying customer to question and investigate the reason for the high cost.

The annual public meetings bit is gold dust. Thanks.

Maybe we should hold our own public meeting.

 

[deborahann]

isn't there a law of freedom of information now ?? Suggest try that.

also if we the english, did a "you can't have a mooring here in the lake district because you are welsh" what an up roar would happen from that. It's because we don't do anything but be quietly outraged that these things happen

 

[Major Catastrophe]

isn't there a law of freedom of information now ?? Suggest try that.

also if we the english, did a "you can't have a mooring here in the lake district because you are welsh" what an up roar would happen from that. It's because we don't do anything but be quietly outraged that these things happen

I will use the freedom of information Act if I don't get replies to the letter I intend to write.

I don't think there is any prejudice against the English by Victoria Dock, but more a system that if you live locally, you get pushed up the list. I actually don't have a problem with that as Victoria Dock is a local facility owned by the council and operated by the trust.

 

[hlb]

I don't think there is any prejudice against the English by Victoria Dock, but more a system that if you live locally, you get pushed up the list. I actually don't have a problem with that as Victoria Dock is a local facility owned by the council and operated by the trust.

But every where is local to some where, but we cant all go around saying sod off you cant come from here. Imagine Tescos saying, sod off you live in the wrong street, take yer stuff back.


We cant even advertise for reliable or experienced workers round here.

How come your lot have to speak welsh and live in Caernarfon.