C Map - How do they get away with this con?

[NormanS]

I think it reasonably can be - provided it doesn't cost anything. This solves the shelf-life problem above - let the user download updates when they buy it, so that the data is as fresh as possible.


Pete

I don't see it that way. Surely it should be the responsibility of the retailer to ensure that the chart that he sells is up to date, exactly the same as BA paper charts. How would you feel if you went to buy a BA Chart, and the first thing you had to do was bring it up to date by applying corrections?

 

[prv]

How would you feel if you went to buy a BA Chart, and the first thing you had to do was bring it up to date by applying corrections?

Errm, business as usual? Only pukka Admiralty Chart Agents keep their stock corrected, and most chandlers are not.

In any case, that's a pretty unique and somewhat anachronistic service. Nothing else you buy, that requires updating, is routinely updated in the shops. Imray paper charts aren't, software isn't, etc. It's quite normal to install a piece of software and then allow it to download updates to the latest version.

Pete

 

[BruceDanforth]

Some manufacturers let you go online and download an initial update for your device to allow for gear sitting on shelves.

I don't see it that way. Surely it should be the responsibility of the retailer to ensure that the chart that he sells is up to date, exactly the same as BA paper charts. How would you feel if you went to buy a BA Chart, and the first thing you had to do was bring it up to date by applying corrections?

 

[RIBW]

I use C-Map and have updated my cartridge twice via Jeppesen in Italy and found general queries answered slowly but when I joined club Jeppesen and posted the chip to them the whole process there and back only took a few days and would recommend it.

+1 and another plus for their free entry to SBS. Their correspondence has always been prompt and friendly.

I bought 3 years of update by joining Club Jeppesen and that has worked well, however, I don't think that scheme is being renewed. I await developments.

Cheers
Bob

PS I am intrigued to find out how Trading Standards gets on dealing with an Italian subsidiary of Boeing Corp!

 

[jackho]

You will find if you buy a Lowrance plotter the same arrangement exists with the "bundled" Navonics card (ready to be downloaded).
They also include the C-map SD as you described.
Not sure though that Lowrance advertised as you say for their product but the outcome is similar.

 

[prv]

You will find if you buy a Lowrance plotter the same arrangement exists with the "bundled" Navonics card (ready to be downloaded).

It's not quite the same as what the OP described, because it doesn't cost you anything to download the Navionics charts onto the card. It's just a stock-keeping convenience, one unit is suitable for all markets worldwide, and chart data won't be ageing on the shelves.

The OP says that he was required to pay to obtain charts for his plotter which claimed to bundle them. If true, that's a problem.

Although I have a sneaking suspicion that he may be confused somehow.

Pete

 

[Chi34]

OP bought a plotter without charts.
Opening box, finds a leaflet from a 3rd party describing bundle which perhaps applies to a north american distribution of the plotter.
Claims free charts from 3rd party. Has no luck.

 

[prv]

OP bought a plotter without charts.
Opening box, finds a leaflet from a 3rd party describing bundle which perhaps applies to a north american distribution of the plotter.
Claims free charts from 3rd party. Has no luck.

The "blank" SD card in the box leads me to suspect that it's a setup like Navionics. Card contains no charts but a magic code recording your entitlement, you plug it into your computer and download the required charts for free. Purchaser has got confused between this and some other promotional bumph and believes he is being asked to pay for charts that should have been bundled. Quite possibly aided and abetted by misinformed staff at the various companies involved.

But really, without a full set of photos and scans of what was in the box, plus access to the "blank" card, we'll never know. And maybe the plotter manufacturer really did screw up the packing and/or labelling of a batch of boxes.

Pete

 

[Trident]

Ok, OP is not at all confused....

In the box with my Simrad plotter is a MicroSD card with a leaflet which says (word for word as I don't have a scanner on board to scan it)

"Your Lowrance, Simrad or B&G chartplotter comes bundled with:"
"Pre-programmed MAX-N BDS:" - then there is a picture of the SD card and below it "Americas - pre-programmed costal coverage for North, Central and South America including the Great Lakes, Bahamas and Caribbean" then a space then "ROW (Rest of World) Pre-programmed costal coverage for Africa, Russia... blah blah countries in a list

I would also note that in each case the words pre-programmed are in bold on the leaflet.

Card has a 33kb file on it which has no charts but may be some sort of identifier - but is certainly NOT pre-programmed with the above

So after no response to emails to several different addresses printed on the leaflet I call and speak to Angelika at Jepessen and she has me email her a copy of this leaflet claiming never to have seen it (though she later sent me the same damn thing back to show how I could upgrade from the BDS to the Max N Wide despite knowing I did not have anything to upgrade from)

And below, in a response email from Angelika - "you can download either the MAX-N BDS or the MAX-N WIDE though neither are a free option"

So the pre-programmed charts that come "bundled" with my card are not pre-programmed and not bundled with and not even available to download as a free option - in other words they cost money. I have to pay to get the charts "bundled with" my plotter. How I might be confused is had to see.

Also, as soon as I complained and asked for contact details for legal or management they stopped replying at all.

Clearly they have no intention of honouring the leaflet they printed. I have also had no reply from Simrad when I emailed them.

I had good service from the retailer - Marine Superstore and I have no issue with them as they never advertised the plotter as being with charts - though when they handed me the box after I had paid they checked and said "your chart card is in there".

I am happy to leave it all to Trading Standards to see if they think there is a case to answer. Meanwhile I have bought the Navionics charts and set off to the Med in 9 days so can leave all the stress behind me.

 

[BruceDanforth]

Was it preprogrammed with Insight charts? Those look quite nice...

 

[FishyInverness]

It should - but the cause is more likely too long sat on the shelf at the chandler's, rather than any fault of the manufacturer or chart publisher. Do you know how long the shop had had it?

I do, the answer is "not very long at all!"

I'm going to weigh in on this one here, (Sorry to the OP for threadjacking) I hope Strathglass doesn't mind this being discussed, and I'm sure my appearance here indicated where his C-MAP and Plotter were purchased from (I dunno, I come to look at some meaty gossip about C-MAP and then a post suddenly sounds very familiar to a situation I heard my colleague discussing, and i'm back into work mode! ).

Jeppessen provide chart cards, outwith the standard programmable ones which are done "in-house" at the Jeppessen dealer and are always up to date at the higher programming price. These ones provided direct from Jeppessen are used as promotional cards when sold with certain brands - that's an agreement for a promotion with the chartplotter manufacturer and Jeppessen, a discounted card is supplied but has to be ordered from Jeppessen, instead of being programmed. These are supplied, supposedly up to date when ordered.

In this case, despite the cards being ordered recently, the data on some of them appears to be out of date. Jeppessen, at times, can be quite "quirky" to deal with when things aren't running smoothly and I'm sure the feeling expressed by Strathglass is shared by a few, his communication of our thoughts on the matter are entirely true, and we have every sympathy with his course of action! I have no idea why promotional charts can't be allowed to be programmed by the dealer with a rebate from Jeppessen, it would stop all this "Oh, it doesn't work? Well no problem, it can be fixed easily, just send it to Italy(!)" madness, but...ours is not to reason why, etc, etc...

Charts of any format, sadly, do go out of date and require updating when this happens. C-map are, in contrast, very easy to do this for - you don't *have* to update them, but obviously it is good practice...just fyi, take it back to a C-MAP dealer, they can do it, usually while you wait - price is usually half the cost of the original chart.

However, on the concept of Self Updating Charts, keep an eye on Insight Genesis from the Lowrance, Simrad and B&G Companies and also Navionics Plus from...ummm....Navionics....these are essentially the first step into "Social Networking Charting"...at the moment very basic and only allowing for sounding using High-Definition sounders to be uploaded and downloaded by subscribers, essentially gradually creating charts with depths and underwater contours by every vessel equipped with that type of sounder equipment wherever they go, but I have no doubt it is going to develop at a very fast rate to include other features.

As for the Simrad/Jeppessen "promotion" with the leaflet, not one i've heard of as yet...but glad to have read this first and got the heads-up, I shall go and investigate this with the companies involved and report back any findings....

Fishy/Nik

 

[Dave_Seager]

According to Jeppeson's site at http://ww1.jeppesen.com/marine/lightmarine/max-n/coverage.jsp, Americas and Rest of World should be pre-programmed but Europe is downloadable. The sire says "MAX-N BDS is included in-box* with the purchase of new Lowrance, Simrad and B&G compatible chartplotters and offers coastal coverage for three regions: Europe, Americas and Rest of World." The asterisk says "In Europe please contact your Navico InsightStore to download the MAX-N BDS European chart."

 

[Strathglass]

I do, the answer is "not very long at all!"

I'm going to weigh in on this one here, (Sorry to the OP for threadjacking) I hope Strathglass doesn't mind this being discussed, and I'm sure my appearance here indicated where his C-MAP and Plotter were purchased from (I dunno, I come to look at some meaty gossip about C-MAP and then a post suddenly sounds very familiar to a situation I heard my colleague discussing, and i'm back into work mode! ).

Jeppessen provide chart cards, outwith the standard programmable ones which are done "in-house" at the Jeppessen dealer and are always up to date at the higher programming price. These ones provided direct from Jeppessen are used as promotional cards when sold with certain brands - that's an agreement for a promotion with the chartplotter manufacturer and Jeppessen, a discounted card is supplied but has to be ordered from Jeppessen, instead of being programmed. These are supplied, supposedly up to date when ordered.

In this case, despite the cards being ordered recently, the data on some of them appears to be out of date. Jeppessen, at times, can be quite "quirky" to deal with when things aren't running smoothly and I'm sure the feeling expressed by Strathglass is shared by a few, his communication of our thoughts on the matter are entirely true, and we have every sympathy with his course of action! I have no idea why promotional charts can't be allowed to be programmed by the dealer with a rebate from Jeppessen, it would stop all this "Oh, it doesn't work? Well no problem, it can be fixed easily, just send it to Italy(!)" madness, but...ours is not to reason why, etc, etc...

Charts of any format, sadly, do go out of date and require updating when this happens. C-map are, in contrast, very easy to do this for - you don't *have* to update them, but obviously it is good practice...just fyi, take it back to a C-MAP dealer, they can do it, usually while you wait - price is usually half the cost of the original chart.

However, on the concept of Self Updating Charts, keep an eye on Insight Genesis from the Lowrance, Simrad and B&G Companies and also Navionics Plus from...ummm....Navionics....these are essentially the first step into "Social Networking Charting"...at the moment very basic and only allowing for sounding using High-Definition sounders to be uploaded and downloaded by subscribers, essentially gradually creating charts with depths and underwater contours by every vessel equipped with that type of sounder equipment wherever they go, but I have no doubt it is going to develop at a very fast rate to include other features.

As for the Simrad/Jeppessen "promotion" with the leaflet, not one i've heard of as yet...but glad to have read this first and got the heads-up, I shall go and investigate this with the companies involved and report back any findings....

Fishy/Nik

Morning Dougie,
Have you still got Falcon?

Yes I did buy it from Gael Force and as their handling of the whole saga has been exemplary I did not feel inclined to quote their name.
The bundled plotter and chart were new stock direct from one of their wholesalers. It was a complete sealed package.

I did attempt to find a mechanism for downloading updates on line but failed miserably. When I phoned them (using their UK phone number which was automatically routed to Italy) I was told that the only way was to send the card to Italy at my expense. I felt that was not on for a new packaged product. I also emailed them to ask for clarification but have had no reply yet.
When I phoned Gael Force they could not have been more appologetic and were very concerned about the package I had been sent. They kept in contact with me and it has now been collected by their carrier.

I am typing this on my new Nexus 10 which arrived hear yesterday from Hong Kong . I upgraded it from android 2.2 to 4.4.2 on line then I loaded with the Navionics UK and Holland HD package and all the other APS I feel I need last night. I was picking up 14 + satalites on it inside my house this morning so the positional accuracy is quite good.

I ordered the tablet a week ago through an Australian company and even though I had to pay an extra £52 for handling/vat/taxes etc it still cost less than buying direct from Google.
I have also purchased a transparent waterproof holder for it from eBay.

I am very happy with Gael Force and will certainly deal with them again. They were just let down by their suppliers.

Iain