Buying yachts abroad

[daveyjones]

Does anyone have any advice about buying a second-hand yacht abroad? The prices in Canada and the US seem a lot lower, and some people have mentioned the Caribbean as a good place to get a bargain. How does one get around the EU Recreational Craft Directive if you intend to import the boat into the UK? I know that pre 1950 vessels are exempt, but it is possible with newer ones. Incidentally, I am told by Customs that no duty is payable on second-hand yachts, only VAT, any comments?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[CharlesM]

Yo DaveyJ

I believe your impression re only VAT is correct.

As regards the RCD - I am not aware that pre 1950 boats are exempt. Could you perhaps direct me to where I can see such (or is that the clause where vessels are built with traditional materials in a traditional manner?)

Anyway, some of the vessels you are looking to purchase may have already seen duty in the EEC - for example in Martinique perhaps - a french territory. I believe there are a number of places in the carribean that are EEC territories.

Anyway, to try answer re RCD - There has recently been an article (I think in YM) where some bloke purchased a boat in Canada and got stung by the RCD when he returned home. After miles of grief he decided to certify the boat himself - certified it category D which is the lowest category, and does not reflect the ability of the vessel, but does make her legal. The vessel was 30' (< 12m) so he could do stability tests etc himself. I do think he still needed to get builders documents and plans etc in order to create the owners manual.

IMO the RCD is, although perhaps not intended, a protectionist piece of legislation. Talking to the RYA there have not been any court cases yet to test the waters on how the RCD will be applied so they cannot really tell you when you are OK or not.

So many of the boats I have looked at (Even in EU waters) fall foul of the RCD. You will not believe the number of sellers (even brokers) who will give you totally misleading info re RCD, and many do not even know what it is.

Regards
Charles

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sea Devil]

CharlesM hi,
So what is RDC? Does it apply to boats that have been out of the EC for a long time? How is it supposed to work?

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing</A>

 

[daveyjones]

I am indeed referring to the clause about traditional construction, but I assume that pre 1950 wooden boats would class as such anyway, unless they were cold-moulded (not sure whether this method existed before then). Although I am pro-Europe, I agree with your remark about protectionism, and it does seem absurd to try and categorise such a diverse thing as a boat into narrow classifications. There is no way I would import a boat and try to have it approved – this seems like a nightmare of bureaucracy, and an expensive nightmare to boot. I will look into your suggestion about EU countries “outside the EU”, as this may be a way around the problem. Boats already in the EU before the RCD came into force (in 1998 I think) are exempt. If you or anyone else reading this knows a suitable island somewhere, please let me know! I have heard that some British yachts can be bought cheaply in the Caribbean, when the owners do not wish to make the return passage, any ideas? Thanks, Davey Jones.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sea Devil]

there are always lots of EU registered boats for sale in places like Trinidad - cos it has so many boat yards and storage facilities - Martinique, Guadaloup = French EU territories, and strangly enough quite a lot on the East Coast USA - Ft Lauderdale, Chesapeak places like Annapolis et al. The USA ones easy to source on the internet.... Trini probably as well but I do not know the sites

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing</A>

 

[alant]

Anyone got a favorite 'for sale' website - 'BoatTrader' ok for US, but not much in Caribbean

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[dweeze]

Yes.

We just bought a boat in Florida.

Pro's - the exchange rate.
Con's - bit of extra cost in getting it here - and VAT.

The exchange rate means you can get a good bargain in the US. When buying over there you will get a sales tax exemption with a 90 day permit to get the boat out of US waters. Once out you just need to send a reciept of some form to the relevant Inland Revenue guys of the state you bought it in.

Transfers of money can be a pain in the bum. Watch out if you are trying to finance it. The banks here are USELESS and are not set up mentally or organisationally for ease. You will most likely have to get part 1 registration in teh UK so they can fix a charge to the vessel before they will complete the transfer of money.

Watch out on the trip home. The nature of buying OS means you probably wont get as much time to road test the boat as is desirable. Breakdowns in the US can be costly. I paid $165 a day to tie up on the wharf at Key West. Also watch your seasons. We left Florida about a week before the Hurricane season started and had to divert to avoid 2 hurricanes. At one stage we had 4 named ones around us in the Atlantic.

RCD exemption. The ruling on boats is that if the vessel was in any of the British Territorial waters pre 16th June 1998 - for any reason or length of time - you can apply for exemption. To prove exemption you can either produce receipts, or an affadavit to the effect that it was in the waters of whatever country. The cost is £125 and the process is very simple. www.ceproof.com do a very good job and are very helpful. I got the exemption based on an affadavit from the owner.

VAT - how you deal with it is up to you, but there are ways around it - or ways to minimise how much you have to pay.

Price wise - if your buying OS you'r probably best buying something that you cant easily get over here or one that has an inflated price on the UK market. You will soak up a fair bit of money in the fluffing around - tickets, repairs, trip costs, etc.

Have more information if you want it.



<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[daveyjones]

Thanks to you all for the information. Regarding the message from Dweeze: I am not sure what a Part 1 Registration is. Is that a UK thing, and if so how is it possible to get it on a boat still in the USA. A useful tip about the costs of docking in the USA - if I do it I would hope to get out of territorial waters as soon as possible, and also out of the hurricane season. When you say the banks are useless, do you mean in the UK or USA? If you have any more information I would be very grateful to receive it, but I know so little that I am not sure what questions to ask? Based on your experience, would you say it was worth the trouble? One other question - is it necessary to infrom US customs, or is it legal to just buy and sail away?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[dweeze]

The UK has three types of boat registration.

Yes its a UK thing (although the process is mirrored around the world). Part one is the most 'official' form. You need a tonnage survey on the vessel and it costs a couple of hundred pounds. The process is more a formality than a hurdle although it can apparently take a long time if you get it done through the DLA in Cardiff. You can register your boat in Gurnsey - the banks will accept that. Part two is something I cant remember and part 3 is an easy registration for recreational craft. Most recreational craft are part 3. Getting it on a boat in US waters is not a problem per se, but the timings involved can be. Expect to have to dick around. The UK registration cant go through until the vessel has been deleted from the US coast guard registry. This is where it gets sticky. Expect the broker to say that they will not finalise the deregistration until they have their money.

Banks in the UK are useless. Some of the people in them are incompetent morons, others are very good.

The boat we bought was worth the trouble, but that was down to two reasons. It was a bargain for what we bought and its a Hans Christian which are hard to get over here. The fact that it was a bargain remains even after the extra money we spent on travel, the trip back, etc. Fitting out in the US is damn cheap and we would have had to spend substancially more on the repairs had it been in the UK.

You can just buy and sail off, although to avoid being hit for sales tax in the state of purchase you will need to fill out a declaration for exemption, which is filed with the state authority and gets you your 90 day exemption permit.

If you get closer to buying a boat over there - email me and I can give you more verbally.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Lizzie_B]

we have just bought boat in Florida as well. One or two minor corections to what has already been said.
Boats under 12 metres in length are liable to UK import duty as well as VAT. This is about 1.8% of the 'landed' value.
Boats 12metres and over are exempt UK import duty.
VAT is charged against the 'landed value' NOT necessarily what you paid for it.
Landed value includes import duty if liable, plus shipping costs and port costs. Eg if you pay a professional delivery skipper to bring the boat back for you you will be charged VAT on his bill as well. Peters & May give very good free advice on these complexities.
The 90 day limit is to remove the boat from the State you bought it from, not US territorial waters. We are sailing our boat from Florida to winter her in Alabama.
We have found costs in the USA far cheaper than in UK with just a little shopping around. Eg winter lay up is about $200 per month ashore (including individual power and water) or about $160 afloat for a 38 footer. You are allowed to work on your own boat except certain operations dealing with enviromentally hazardous materials. Surveyors were cheaper and more thorough, and yard work costs (except for topsides painting, which was only marginally cheaper) have run at about half of what I have been charged in UK boatyards.
Much mythology seems to surround the dreaded RCD.You can in fact self certify as high as category B with the exception of the stability test, which the RYA can organise for you if the boat's builder is unable to supply you with the data. They quoted about £600 for my Catalina 38. Much of what is required for RCD compliance is no more than I would want to do on a boat anyway. The owners manual is very straight forward to do and a skeleton framework is available free to use as a guide, and again no more than many boats in syndicate ownership or charter management would require. Another way forward is to borrow an owners manual from someone who owns an RCD compliant boat. Boatyards in the states are in many cases up to speed on RCD modification and if they are members of the National Marine Manufacturers Assosciation can get hold of all the information and specifications to modify and certify systems to RCD standards. It helps a lot to choose a boat whose builder is still in business. Failing all else you can self certify in cat D and gradually upgrade systems to Cat B, or A if you want to go the whole hog. I don't know why the guy in the YM article had such a problem as the article didn't give enough detail.
The Nat West Bank dealt with all the money side of things and transfers without any hassle and charged me £25.
The one area of difficulty was finding a British Insurance broker to insure a vessel of such low purchase value, but once it became obvious it was going to be hard work, I insured with an American Company to cover the boat for her lay up, Trans Atlantic Delivery and first six months in the UK ( and this in Florida in one of their worst hurricane seasons). Prices panned out at just a little cheaper than UK.
All in all I think it was well worth it, but you do have to be prepared to spend a ot of free time on the project doing the research and be patient and don't rush bringing the boat back until everything is in place.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[daveyjones]

Thanks for the information. How would it apply to a second-hand yacht, would the broker be able to advise on RCD compliance? Are there agencies in the USA similar to ceproof here? Where can I get hold of the model for the owner's manual you mention?

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[daveyjones]

Thanks Dweeze, if you don't mind sending me your email address, I'll hang on to it and contact you again if/when I get to look for a yacht in another country. My address is jones@elecserve.freeserve.co.uk. Thanks again.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Lizzie_B]

I was talking about secondhand boat. Current USA builders of new, such as Island Packet, Hunter Legend and Catalina are of course already exporting to UK with RCD plates on them. The RCD, bizarrely, treats a secondhand boat no matter how old, bought outside the EU as a new boat, and you(the new owner) as the importer of a new boat. The relevant guidelines including model for owner's handbook can be downloaded as the following pdf
http--europa.eu.int/comm/enterprise/maritime/maritime_regulatory/docs/rsg_guidelines_2002.pdf
good luck. Will pm in more detail tomorrow. Need my ugly sleep.

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[CharlesM]

Hi Bambola

As you may by now have picked up, the RCD is an piece of EU legislation that boats need to comply with. I think it covers a great deal of safety and structural issues, but not clear exactly what. See <A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.ceproof.com/recreational_craft_directive_RCD.htm>http://www.ceproof.com/recreational_craft_directive_RCD.htm</A> for more information.

Someone said they have some RCD exempt certificate they got from CEPROOF. I think we need to highlight that this is not a legal or goverment document, but is some official looking stuff that will *hopefully* keep any officiials off your back.

I am certainly considering investigating self certification, since many boats I am interested in fall foul of this issue.

Regards
Charles

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[daveyjones]

Thanks for all the information

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sea Devil]

Charles hi,
Many thanks for the info and the link - Any boat over 6 years old is excempt - fine. I wonder who polices this? Nobody I expect - The only problem I can see is when you want to sell on a non plated boat.......

regards

Michael

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing</A>

 

[CharlesM]

Hey Michael

You gotta be clear about the age exemption.

The boat is exempt from the RCD IF
a) It is older than 6 years (older than 16 June 1998) *AND*
b) The boat has been put into service (not simply tourism) or sold in the EEC prior to this date

So, there is no simple age related relief.

Regards
Charles

<hr width=100% size=1>

 

[Sea Devil]

Thanks - gosh that makes it all a bit hard. Bit of EU protectionism it sounds like - It was a small fight to get my wifes Renault Clio purchased in the UK registered as a french car when we moved to France - about a weeks work of research, visits and French MOT... Shudder to think what a boat would entail!

<hr width=100% size=1><A target="_blank" HREF=http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing>http://www.michaelbriant.com/sailing</A>