Buying in the USA

[Rusty1]

Dear All,

Can anyone comment knowledgeably on the pros and cons of buying a motor cruiser in the US and bringing it back for use the UK. I know about the VAT position, but even allowing for that, it does seem that you can get a lot more boat there for your money.
I went looking today in Norfolk/Suffolk and it would seem that I could buy a much better spec, younger, bigger boat for MUCH less money in the US. Companies such as Global Marine offer to deliver here. Is this a sensible alternative?
All genuine advice gratefully received. Sorry if this is a well-worn topic - but it isn't to me.
Thanks.

 

[hlb]

Yep, fairly well worn topic. Not got involved with it myself. Most advice seems to be it's not worth the bother. Theres all the 240 Volt stuff to change. Then theres the EU certificate Forget what it's called. There is also a quality question about some US boat's and there suitability for the sea.

So less you know lots and lots about the subject, I'd leave it alone.

 

[Tidnock]

I dont no much about doing it with boat's although we have done it with machinery.

Before you consider importing a boat look into CE marking and the cost's of any upgrades required to meet CE certification, there are companies that will do the CE marking.This might not be an issue for you and to my knowledge, you can use the boat without it, however, without CE marking, it might make it difficult to sell.

investigate any shore power issues, I have seen US market boats with a building site 110v transformers? not good.

 

[EugeneR]

As someone who has done it a number of times, and helped others with it, I can tell you that is is absolutely, absolutely worth it. Look for 30% to 40% savings, like for like UK spec, after costs.

I do not believe that American boats have quality issues affecting safety, etc. They are built to standards that are, in some places, higher than EU standards e.g. wires are tinned and last much longer. Of course, you get what you pay for - the "Ford" versus "Mercedes" analogy is perfectly valid and both are safe to drive. To clarify, the same model should have the same build quality regardless of being personally imported or not.

The CE category will tell you what to expect in terms of ability at sea.

Electical conversation is neither an issue nor a big cost; in most cases you do not need a transformer and even if you do, the specifics means that you can use a special light and quiet type. I can advise if necessary.

The biggest issue is that some people who import do not know how to do it effectively, or how to convert a boat properly. As a result, people form an opinion that importing boats are not worth it or end up something different than an UK boat; this may impact when it comes to selling the boat. Many people also do not like it that you have the same boat but have paid much less for it.

I could do a long list of what to do and what to avoid. Here's top three, I'd say:

1. By-pass the "middle-men". This includes the chain of freight agents adding 30% on shipping costs simply for filling in paperwork, and boat import agents who know you are making a huge saving and take their cut. Target $1000 for shipping 30ft roughly, plus loading/unloading/cradle/etc.

2. Consider brands with local distributors and models that have been CE certified; some manufacturers tell you what is needed to comply with CE for a specific model. An engine/outdrive combination known to have been certified may mean you do not have to do expensive noise or emmission tests as part of your post-construction certification. Target sub-£1,000 for CE of sub-30ft boat. Check for international engine warranty. Local dealers won't help you import and some give wrong advice on this; but they seem to happily take money for parts and service once you are here. Of course, a new boat's warranty is probably not valid here - buy good 2nd hand or test the boat properly before shipping.

3. Most electrics / electronics can be converted easily. Replace circuit breakers - cheap if you know the original manufacturer e.g. Airpax or Carlingswitch is used by BEP panels; change calorifier and cooker elements; switch radio to International frequency; fit RCD breaker for safety; put batteries in battery boxes, etc. Some minor electrical changes e.g. some electronic circuits need to be modified, IM me if you need details.

With the current exchange rate I haven't done this for about 2 years but am happy to advise if you do decide to go for this.

My suggestion - go for it!

Hope this helps!

 

[EugeneR]

to my knowledge, you can use the boat without it, however, without CE marking, it might make it difficult to sell.

It is illegal to put into use a boat in the EU without CE certification. Unless exempt, of course.

 

[Tidnock]

It is illegal to put into use a boat in the EU without CE certification. Unless exempt, of course.

Are you sure? if so, which institution would take proceedings and has a case ever been won against an individual using a non CE marked boat, I very much doubt it.

I would suggest that it is quite legal to use a boat that is not CE marked, afterall you can go to sea in a hollowed out log if you wish, however, it may be illegal to retail one.

I would guess that if the OP wants to buy a boat in the US and operate it here, there is absolutely nothing stopping him

 

[Whitelighter]

It is most definitly illegal to put a boat into use without it being correctly CE certified if it is first being put into use after 1998 (i.e a US import today).

The MCA have very definit powers to fine, impounded and even prison offenders on a number of counts.

It is unlikely that anyone would question you on a daily basis however, but the problems start if something goes wrong. Your insurance will not pay out if they discover there is no CE certificate when there should be one, and that counts for third party damage as well (lets face it, insurance companies are activly looking for reasons not to pay), whats more if there are deaths or injuries and it can be proven that you were operating the vessel illegally, you become liable for amages and would probably face prosecution.

There was the case of a river boat that over turned killing two women that either did not have a CE plate or was incorrectly CE marked (I forget which) and the skipper was fined and jailed.

Your attitude comes from a position of ignorance.

If you are buying a boat, spend the extra £1000-£2000 getting it CE marked. Its the law, and if anything happens you will be thankful you did. Plus, they just might change something that saves your life.

Do you realise, for example, that most US boats do not have to have engine bay fire extinguishers?????

 

[adey]

I can't see it being worth the hassle with the current exchange rate. When it was over $2 to the pound maybe, but not now.
Do a search, it's been covered many times.

 

[Tidnock]

"Your attitude comes from a position of ignorance."

You say my attitude come from a position of ignorance, I am always ready to learn, as such, I would be most grateful, if you would educate me. For example could you quote when or where anyone has been prosecuted simply for using a non CE marked boat in the UK, surely if precedence was set it would be high profile and documented particularly if the offender was jailed.

"Do you realise, for example, that most US boats do not have to have engine bay fire extinguishers?????" is this part of CE certification????? NO

 

[Salty John]

It's all here:
http://www.rya.org.uk/infoadvice/regssafety/Pages/recreationalcraftdirective.aspx

 

[Whitelighter]

.

"Do you realise, for example, that most US boats do not have to have engine bay fire extinguishers?????" is this part of CE certification????? NO

Actually it is a requirement, and the extinguishers must be CE marked. Along with corrcetly marked fuel lines etc etc etc etc.

I will go off and find the report concering the river boat that turned over for the correct details.

I agree, no-one has been prosecuted for using a boat which isnt CE marked. That wont help you though if you are involved in an incident which requires investigation by MAIB (which most are).

 

[Tranona]

Generally it is not worth doing - if it was, the market here would be flooded with imports!.

Does not mean there are not specific situations where it might be worth it, particularly when it was $2 to £1, and you are prepared to do all the work yourself. However, VAT and shipping are typically 25-30% of buying price. CE marking can be low cost on a simple boat which is already imported officially into the EU as the data will be available. Less easy on bigger older boats (where the price differential is usually greater), particularly getting engines through the latest tests.

Yes, it is illegal to "place on the market" without a CE mark, but this normally means offering for sale. Therefore the boat has in theory no value without it. Trading Standards are responsible for policing CE marks. Note that a CE mark is required for any age boat unless it was either built in the EEA or in use here before 1998 - but these sorts of boats are rare.

 

[Whitelighter]

Yes, it is illegal to "place on the market" without a CE mark,

Again, the legislation is quite clear. The phrase 'put on the maket' is used but not as an absolute. The full requirement is for vessels put onto the market or put into service'. I.e, using a non-CE marked vessel in the EU, when it is based and registered or owned by a European nation is illegal.

Please, if you are going to advise people on points of law at least read the legislation about which you are advising.

I dont know of anyone who has been done for simply using a non-CE maeked boat, but that in itself doesnt make it leagal. There must be a first at some point.

This: http://www.boatsurvey.biz/RCD.htm is very useful and concise guid by a surveyor/engineer who completes RCD certification for manufacturers. Please note:

'Which boats need to comply?

All recreational craft of between 2.5m and 24m which have been put onto the market or into service in the European Community (EEA) since 16th June, 1998 and that are not exempt.'

 

[Tidnock]

Actually it is a requirement, and the extinguishers must be CE marked. Along with corrcetly marked fuel lines etc etc etc etc.

I will go off and find the report concering the river boat that turned over for the correct details.

I agree, no-one has been prosecuted for using a boat which isnt CE marked. That wont help you though if you are involved in an incident which requires investigation by MAIB (which most are).

I would suggest the river boat skipper lost his liberty for issues outside of CE marking, again I might be wrong.

Fuel line quality, fire extinguishers, warning decals in English (UK), weights in Kgs not lbs etc etc etc are perhaps related to the CE standard for retailing new or used equipment in the UK.

It has been my submission from the outset that you can operate a non CE marked boat in the UK, I have also said that it may impact the resale value.

Furthermore, should I replace or add any new part or apparatus to my boat, as an individual, I am under no obligation to ensure it is CE compliant.

As a private coastal boat user, it is my understanding that the level of safety equipment is nothing more than advisory.

I have been involved in both sides of grey market imports. For several years in an attempt to cease the importation of grey market machines to protect our own market, as we were the sole importer of a particular brand of machinery. Then, in a "if you cannot beat them join them approach" we also imported grey market machines and in order to retail them we CE marked them.

In sort, for three years, we tried to find a legal precedence to stop the importation, we could not, we identified machines working on UK sites that were not CE marked, this was not illegal. The sale and retail of them at the time was questionable, however, no one was prosecuted for the importation and sale, cira 3000 machines/year, when or if the exchange rate swings it will start again.

 

[Whitelighter]

It has been my submission from the outset that you can operate a non CE marked boat in the UK, I have also said that it may impact the resale value.

It will impact resale, because legally you cant. And with regard to use, please just read the regulations. Just becasue no-one has been prosecuted, doesnt mean it isnt illegal. Just ask a few spanish boaters about matriculation tax. A law which lay dormant until last year...

Furthermore, should I replace or add any new part or apparatus to my boat, as an individual, I am under no obligation to ensure it is CE compliant.

Yes, but you cannot buy non-compliant good in the EU. If you self import, then techinally they also should not be used. Again, maybe not a problem until you boat catches fire/sinks and kills someone. Then you may be prosecuted for intentionally fitting non-complaint equiptment.

As a private coastal boat user, it is my understanding that the level of safety equipment is nothing more than advisory.

But we arent talking about optional safety equiptment. We are talking about the key equiptment and structure of the vessel and that it has been appropraiatly checked

I have been involved in both sides of grey market imports. For several years in an attempt to cease the importation of grey market machines to protect our own market, as we were the sole importer of a particular brand of machinery. Then, in a "if you cannot beat them join them approach" we also imported grey market machines and in order to retail them we CE marked them.

In sort, for three years, we tried to find a legal precedence to stop the importation, we could not, we identified machines working on UK sites that were not CE marked, this was not illegal. The sale and retail of them at the time was questionable, however, no one was prosecuted for the importation and sale, cira 3000 machines/year, when or if the exchange rate swings it will start again.

Yes, but RCD applies specifically to boat - the Recreational (not commercial) Craft (boat) Directive (EU bull**** maybe).

 

[Jim@sea]

With respect, A friend buys these "Enormous Motor Homes" from the US, and saves 40%, ok the electrics are different but he uses a transformer. And If I was buying a boat from the US, I would go their first, buy it, use it for a few weeks so when you bring it over here its "second hand". Perhaps its "illegal" if you are in business in the UK selling boats to offer for sale a boat without the EU stamp, but you have passed that.
And when I was looking at buying a boat when I lived in France there appeared to be loads of US boats which had been imported. PS also look at how many Brand New Ford Mustangs are available in the UK, but none through Ford Main Dealers.

 

[Tranona]

Again, the legislation is quite clear. The phrase 'put on the maket' is used but not as an absolute. The full requirement is for vessels put onto the market or put into service'. I.e, using a non-CE marked vessel in the EU, when it is based and registered or owned by a European nation is illegal.

You are, of course right. I suppose the point I was trying to make is that this is consumer legislation aimed at regulating the sale of products, not the use. That is why it is policed by Trading Standards. An "offence" is therefore more likely to be pursued when a boat is sold, rather than just used.

In a similar vein, it is an offence to claim a boat is suitable for a particular use (if you are a trader) if it does not meet the RCD standard for that use, but not an offence for an individual to use it however they want. if it were not so, then many people would be guilty of using their boats outside the conditions described in the RCD categories.

 

[mlines]

Do you realise, for example, that most US boats do not have to have engine bay fire extinguishers?????" is this part of CE certification?????

Even more stupid is that, when a nice US boat has a fully automatic engine bay fire extinguisher system it doesn't count as an extinguisher in the Small Boats Safety Scheme. So based on this - you can't get CE certified without one and you can't get BSS certified with one. Isn't certification a lot of "jobs and money for the boys" process.

 

[Tranona]

With respect, A friend buys these "Enormous Motor Homes" from the US, and saves 40%, ok the electrics are different but he uses a transformer. And If I was buying a boat from the US, I would go their first, buy it, use it for a few weeks so when you bring it over here its "second hand". Perhaps its "illegal" if you are in business in the UK selling boats to offer for sale a boat without the EU stamp, but you have passed that.
And when I was looking at buying a boat when I lived in France there appeared to be loads of US boats which had been imported. PS also look at how many Brand New Ford Mustangs are available in the UK, but none through Ford Main Dealers.

You could not be more wrong. Please refer to the RYA link in the earlier post. Privately imported cars still have to comply with construction and use and cannot be registered without going through an approval process. It is irrelevant that a car or boat is secondhand, the law is quite clear. To be imported into the EU (strictly the EEA) whether for private use or resale it must comply with the law.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

Jim@sea, boat and car imports come in two types, those built for export and exported via distributors and those built for the home market but then subsequently imported privately. It's the difference between buying a Nissan from the UK dealer and importing one sold in Japan. I would suspect that all the US imports you're seeing are actually "European Spec" boats.

There's usually virtually no difference except that the manufacturer has to test a model to prove it complies with the relevant regulations. So a Sea-Ray for example will be type-approved. Unless the factory actually apply a CE plate to it though it not actually a certified model. Doesn't matter that it's absolutely identical, this isn't about safety, it's about ticks in the box. A cynic would say it's so we have to pay local prices rather than the cheapest globally.

Salty John's link has chapter and verse, including a link specifically on importing from the USA.