Buying in Italy ?

[voyagerabout]

Perhaps not the correct place for such a question but here goes, I am considering making an offer on a yacht in Italy. It is not close to the nearest airport (Bari is approx 145km away) so running back and forth is a pain, ( not to mention the travelling starts in the UK ). I have read various reports on the process, with some having little or no woes, while others have had a number of problems. These were based on experiences some years ago and I am hopping for some guidance on the current state of play.

Can someone please provide clarification on the process and means of reducing any usual problems?

I have the benefit of holding both EU and British passports so hoping to bypass the worst of any post Brexit confusion when travelling.

The intention is to register in UK SSR , but would consider elsewhere if there is an advantage, again would like to draw on the experience out there.

Any advice gratefully received.

 

[Mr Cassandra]

I had to pay the brokers fee on top of the yacht price, so your cheap yacht becomes a lot more expensive, then de registration from the Italian flag

 

[PuffTheMagicDragon]

Make sure that the seller will handle the process of de-registration. This can take some time; in my case the seller had a lot of toing and froing between Rome and Porto Stefano, and it took her some three months. (the boat was berthed in Malta but she was registered under the Italian Flag).
It was a private deal between the late owner's daughter in Rome and myself in Malta; her father and I had become good friends since the boat was on the same pontoon where I had my previous boat. It could be that if a broker is involved some time could be saved... at a price.

 

[MapisM]

I can't think of any IT marina whose nearer airport is at 145Km AND such airport is Bari.
Unless you don't have flights to some other airport which would actually be closer - like Brindisi, for instance?
Anyhow, it's tricky to summarize all the aspects to consider when purchasing a boat in IT.
A forum search for previous debates on this matter would be a good start.
But generally speaking, there's a reason why most of the deals which look good on paper are related to boats based in S Italy.
Saying that northern boats are normally better maintained is an understatement - though every rule can have exceptions.
If you don't mid disclosing more details, I came across a few brokers in Apulia, and I might be able to give some hints.

 

[danielefua]

...
But generally speaking, there's a reason why most of the deals which look good on paper are related to boats based in S Italy.
Saying that northern boats are normally better maintained is an understatement - though every rule can have exceptions.
If you don't mid disclosing more details, I came across a few brokers in Apulia, and I might be able to give some hints.

I am very sorry to point out that yours is not an "understatement" but simply an urban myth, just to avoid calling it in a worse way.
...and please notice that I am not from Southern Italy, I do not live there and my boat is not from there but, if it were the case, I would live there and I would buy a boat there without any doubt!
Besides this, "Puglie" is the correct name of that extremely beautiful region.

Daniel

 

[BrianH]

I had to pay the brokers fee on top of the yacht price, so your cheap yacht becomes a lot more expensive, then de registration from the Italian flag

This was indeed the Italian broker convention but northern brokers and on-line European ones have introduced the vendor-only fee.

When in 2005 I found a yacht I wanted in my NE Italian marina the traditional Italian broker, a franchised Hallberg Rassy one, wanted to charge me 4% of the purchase price - the owner would also have been invoiced another 4%, which was the standard practice at the time. When I demurred, he offered to lower to 2%. Consequently, I offered what I thought was a fair price with respect to prices of that HR model elsewhere in Europe, less 2%. The owner refused it - not necessarily because of the 2%, he had very unrealistic ideas of his yacht's worth. I then toured Northern Europe and found another of the same marque for private sale in Holland and had it transported to the Adriatic - even with transport it cost far, far less than that one in my marina.

Since then, the German broker Michael Schmidt & Partner has opened an office in the marina and now has many more local listings than two neighbouring, Italian competitors together. The one that advertised the yacht that I originally wanted to buy has since closed down. As explained to me, the Italian market had been something of a cartel but EU regulations supported other entrants and conditions.

Michael Schmidt & Partner charged me 8% of the purchase price for non-exclusive representation when it sold my same yacht last year, only three months after I signed the contract; the buyer was not charged any fee. All friends in the marina who have sold their boats have done so through that same agency.

 

[MapisM]

I am very sorry to point out that yours is not an "understatement" but simply an urban myth, just to avoid calling it in a worse way.
...and please notice that I am not from Southern Italy, I do not live there and my boat is not from there but, if it were the case, I would live there and I would buy a boat there without any doubt!
Besides this, "Puglie" is the correct name of that extremely beautiful region.

Why should you be sorry? If your experience is different than mine, fair enough.

But just for the records, during my last boat search I inspected almost 80 (yes, eighty, not a typo) used boats, located anywhere in between Sicily and Friuli.
I went to Bari, Brindisi, Taranto and Gallipoli, among many other places.
So, it's strictly on the basis of my first hand experience that I said what I said.
Except the part where I said that exceptions can exist: that was just based on common sense, since I didn't find any.
Not only in Apulia BTW, but also in Sicily and Campania, where I checked out several other boats.

Apropos, you are teaching grandma to suck eggs with your comment on the name of the region, because if there's a language I could teach, it's Italian.
In fact, I am insisting to write Apulia just because, as you surely noticed, around here English is more popular than Italian.
And ironically, in this case the EN name is also the original, latin name of the Region.
Anyway, if by "correct name" you mean the Italian one, it's actually Puglia, not Puglie.
By far my preferred region of southern Italy, an area which I love in more ways than one.
But not for buying boats.

 

[MapisM]

Since then, the German broker Michael Schmidt & Partner has opened an office in the marina and now has many more local listings than two neighbouring, Italian competitors together. The one that advertised the yacht that I originally wanted to buy has since closed down. As explained to me, the Italian market had been something of a cartel but EU regulations supported other entrants and conditions.

Michael Schmidt & Partner charged me 8% of the purchase price for non-exclusive representation when it sold my same yacht last year, only three months after I signed the contract; the buyer was not charged any fee. All friends in the marina who have sold their boats have done so through that same agency.

It's true that in the IT market the broker fee is shared between the seller and the buyer, but that has nothing to see with any sort of "cartel".
That's in fact based on a legal requirement, as stated in the Italian Civil Code.
I'm not "defending" this law, mind. But that's what it is, like it or not.
If MS&P did what you said in a transaction that took place in Italy, they breached the law - it's that simple.

 

[BrianH]

It's true that in the IT market the broker fee is shared between the seller and the buyer, but that has nothing to see with any sort of "cartel".
That's in fact based on a legal requirement, as stated in the Italian Civil Code.
I'm not "defending" this law, mind. But that's what it is, like it or not.
If MS&P did what you said in a transaction that took place in Italy, they breached the law - it's that simple.

That final sentence sent me rooting out my copy of the contract. It is in English ... I could have had German or Italian versions. The German manager was fluent in all three languages but the yacht had UK MCA Part 1 registration so we settled on that despite my Swiss nationality and address.

BROKERAGE CONTRACT
Page 1.
[After all my details as "Owner"]:

"In the brokerage contract, the owner is called -Owner - and Schmidt & Partner Yachtbrokers srl is called -Broker -
The Owner instructs the Broker to sell the vessel as specified in the enclosed sales specification and he declares that he is the legal owner of the vessel and absolutely entitled to transfer his interest in the vessel.
The Owner agrees to pay the Broker a commission of 8 % plus VAT (10 % in case of a sale through a corresponding broker) of the sales price."

It is difficult to believe that in a standard transaction an international company had "breached the law" in a country where it had been operating for many years.

This was the on-line advertisement last year for my yacht on the Schmidt & Partner Italian website:

​

 

[Mr Cassandra]

Well I was very dissatisfied with the broker ,even the yard Hanibal were concerned for me with his tricks .