Buying - help please

Thanks Guys, good info and food for thought, I think I am beginning to get a short list. Probably don't desperately need bilge keel, there are a couple of Westerly Riviera's on web one below, has furling main and internal and external helm, newish engine, bilge keel too... are these worth looking at regarding sailing ability? Presumably with both helm positions it would be ideal?
1990 Westerly Riviera 35 Deck Saloon for sale - YachtWorld

Also found a Moody Eclipse 32... looks ok, more expensive than the Westerly above, same age, is this a better option in terms of sailing ability? Can't see much difference otherwise.
https://www.yachtworld.co.uk/yacht/1990-moody-eclipse-33-8329474/
You thoughts much appreciated!
Cheers Johnp.
 
As a rule of thumb bite keelers do not sail as well as fin or even long keel, motor sailers tend to be similarly disadvantaged but not so much. It very much depends on where your priorities lie.
 
Nothing wrong with the Westerly - as it says uses the same hull as the Seahawk and a number of other Westerlys of that size. Never sold well perhaps because only the designer of the deck could love its looks. It was also like most deck saloons priced at a considerable premium over aft cockpit and aft cabin versions of the same hull.

Eclipse on the other hand was a bespoke design and was really popular despite its premium price. When new it was in the same price bracket as the Riviera but the difference in asking price now is telling - the Eclipse still hits the spot.

Neither are performance boats because that is not their purpose. They are competent middle of the road cruisers with powerful engines and the added benefit of inside steering position. This makes them very attractive to buyers who sail in northern waters but that market is limited in absolute numbers particularly when you consider the 20%= price premium when new. Also as the Westerly illustrates it is not easy to make that size boat pleasing to look at!

Sounds like a weekend in the south to look at both is called for. Not often will you get a chance to see an example of each of these so close together.
 
One other question please, the Moody Eclipse MK2 uses an autopilot system in the cabin (no physical helm), does this mean that ALL other yachts could use similar...and therefore the whole point of a physical internal helm position is effectively null and void? Confused again. Thanks Johnp
 
You may find this web page and links worth reading about the Westerly Riviera.
Riviera 35 - Westerly-Wiki

This Moody Owners forum chat might also help with the Moody Eclipse 33.
Moody Eclipse 33 - Thoughts on owning a Moody 33 Eclipse

The Riviera is a much larger boat, so has more internal space.

From memory Moody's found few people used the internal steering wheel to sail, just put it on autopilot and used the buttons to steer. It has been a long time since I have been aboard either, so I cannot pass judgement between them. I currently own a Westerly Fulmar and in the past my late parents had a Moody Eclipse 43. Moody also made and Eclipse 38, but few were made and might be outside your budget.
 
johnp99 said:
One other question please, the Moody Eclipse MK2 uses an autopilot system in the cabin (no physical helm), does this mean that ALL other yachts could use similar...and therefore the whole point of a physical internal helm position is effectively null and void? Confused again. Thanks Johnp
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Not sure what you mean, yachts will either have an internal helm, an external helm or a combination of both with or without an autopilot.
 
johnp99 said:
One other question please, the Moody Eclipse MK2 uses an autopilot system in the cabin (no physical helm), does this mean that ALL other yachts could use similar...and therefore the whole point of a physical internal helm position is effectively null and void? Confused again. Thanks Johnp
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Dual station steering is expensive, complicated and leads to loss of feel (all comparative) and as concerto says few owners sailed from inside and when remotes for the autopilot came in it was an obvious swap as fine for use when motoring on passage. Close quarters under power is best done from th cockpit, for example when berthing.
 
johnp99 said:
Dunedin - mmm, maybe I am assuming too much, I thought most centre helms were well sheltered and all had a strong hood option, maybe a pilot house with internal helm better... but \i have heard that you cannot see well which makes sailing tricky to say the least. This maybe leaves few choices such as the LM32 or as you say rear helm position designed with a strong hood.. no idea which yachts have those... cheers JohnP
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Sounds logical but in reality standing in the rain and spray you'll eventually be ducked down behind that spray hood, freezing cold and wishing you were somewhere else. You won't be very attentive at that point and you can't see as much from there as you'd see from a wheelhouse where you would have been fresh and warm. Your physical condition certainly will play an important part in how attentive and alert you are. After sailing yachts and then having two motorboats with wheelhouses if I had 70K for a Scotland boat I would 100% get a motorsailer with a traditional type of wheelhouse, a heater and a radar.

If you go that way consider how close you can get to the glass in every direction. When its dark ideally you need to be able to stand right up against all the windows so you can cup your hands around to enclose your eyes pressed up against the glass to block out reflected interior light and being close up you can see through the water droplets, then you get a great view out. In many modern pilot house designs you can't get right up to the glass and won't be able to see much through the water droplets.
 
Trying to make sense of all this, the sailing I am likely to do most is fairly local, not extensive passage, so a yacht with both inside helm and external, using the internal only when cold and wet, (as this is a cold and wet area), would seem to make sense. If it also has an autohelm plus AIS this can used to make longer passages safe and warm. The external helm would then be perfect for benign weather sailing or short hops (and mooring of course). (I tend to agree that if you are cold and uncomfortable, then sailing becomes a pain rather than a joy. The motorsailer is not an option for me as I am basically a sailor and like to get a boat sailing rather than motoring, speed does not matter as I would prefer sailing slower than using the engine as I have always found in my limited yachting experience that the motion and joy is so much better under sail. I know that tides wait for no man, so engine essential at times.) So are we back to either the Westerly Riviera / Moody Eclipse / LM32 or some other similar dual helm? If so, which one is best re my original compromise of sailing/comfort/space? Cheers Johnp
 
johnp99 said:
The motorsailer is not an option for me as I am basically a sailor and like to get a boat sailing rather than motoring, speed does not matter as I would prefer sailing slower than using the engine as I have always found in my limited yachting experience that the motion and joy is so much better under sail. I know that tides wait for no man, so engine essential at times.
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Motorsailor is really just a term for a sailing boat with a wheelhouse and typically a bigger engine. They tend to be a bit less sailing oriented, you don't see many racing, but not to the point where its not a sailing boat that travels under sail alone given the same wind opportunity you get that any other yacht would choose to sail in rather than motor. Just maybe half a knot slower if more modest sail area / less slender hull. Other benefits of the wheelhouse is its a much nicer place to wait out weather, more view than being down in the yacht belly with a few slits you can only see out of if you stand up. All the boat area is usable moored up in bad weather rather than a good amount of boat space unusable cockpit. With a wheelhouse you'll be more inclined to motor out on a wet day where there's a chance of some good weather later in the day. Not so tempting to start the day cold and wet. But if you don't go out you can sit in the warm with a nice view across the top of the other boats in the marina. Buuuut it might not suit what you have imagined yourself sailing. Personally I'd be putting a offer in on this if I had the spare cash and time to make good use of it Fisher 34 Mk II For Sale, 10.46m, 1990 (boatshed.com) I'd expect to get a hell of a lot more sailing time in scotland with something like this than a light weight open top yacht. How many people drive convertible cars in Scotland?
 
Athomson... Ok I hear you loud and clear, initially I was considering a motorsailer! However all the stuff I read regarding 'motorsalers' was that they simply don't sail close hauled, are all underpowered in sail area and need a fair puff to get any sort of speed even off the wind. This, of course, may be complete nonsense! But how can I make a judgement when I cannot find a 'scientific & independent' review of each boat? This is the main problem I am having, for other pursuits I have always been able to dig out independent info that makes sense. Johnp.
 
johnp99 said:
So are we back to either the Westerly Riviera / Moody Eclipse / LM32 or some other similar dual helm? If so, which one is best re my original compromise of sailing/comfort/space? Cheers Johnp
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Johnp

To be honest, they will all meet your needs. However, it all rests on how you feel about the layout, what is on the market, where it is for sale, the condition, and not forgetting the price. It is not like buying a new boat, you are looking at an old boat of some 30 years and possibly a number of owners doing their own fixes/improvements and sometimes condition is the most important.

As you are talking Scotland, it is far more breezy up north than say the South Coast, so a slightly small sail plan may be an advantage. Having been in the northern isles for the past month, it has been very windy.
 
Concerto - yep still windy here, 'Findhorn sailing week' this week, racing tomorrow in a RS 400, looking forward to getting wet if it is still blowing...
 
Summary - Fisher 34 vs say Moody Eclipse ... both have internal helm position with a view, warm and dry. Moody has also rear helm for proper sailing in 'nice' weather, both sail ok, Motorsailer has more room. Is this about it... or have I missed a crucial element?
 
Of all the motorsailors you are now shortlisting, the Fisher will be the slowest. When I was recently in Kirkwall, I chatted with the owner of a Fisher 38 (IIRC the length) and he said in force 3 or less he has to motor as it will just not sail. Give him a force 6 to 7 on the beam and she goes like a train.
 
johnp99 said:
Summary - Fisher 34 vs say Moody Eclipse ... both have internal helm position with a view, warm and dry. Moody has also rear helm for proper sailing in 'nice' weather, both sail ok, Motorsailer has more room. Is this about it... or have I missed a crucial element?
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Apples and oranges. The Moody (and Riviera if you can cope with the looks) will do what you want - that is exactly what they are aimed at. If you want to do local sailing then a Fisher is not the boat. It is a heavy motor boat hull with enough sail to make long passages off the wind feasible but not rewarding to sail compared with the other 2 which are sailing boats with wheelhouses added - the Riviera literally.

Another way of thinking about it is that the fisher (as already noted) is a boat for all weathers that on a nice day you can sail from the cockpit and the other 2 are sailing boats that you can helm from below if the weather turns.
 
These walk through videos are great aren't they Moody Eclipse 33 - Boatshed - Boat Ref#301440 - YouTube and
very helpful. There is also the other size Fishers and Nauticats to consider perhaps better in light wind than a Fisher but still a proper wheelhouse rather than a compromise raised coach roof thing like the moody. If you've not seen one in the flesh fishers are impressively substantial things, I don't know the full heritage of the design but not hard to guess its an evolved design which will look after you in rough seas. I'd value that highly in an area with rapidly changing weather.

Coming from dinghys I can well imagine you want that "rewarding to sail" factor but none of the yachts you're considering will give it to match a fast dinghy. Its a very different thing. A big factor will be if you'll be single handed a lot. Mostly people over estimate how much other people have time to join them and end up single handed a lot if they want to use the boat. At that point you need to use the autohelm more than you might be thinking now and pointing a few degrees more or less to wind becomes less of an issue as a lot of motor sailing goes on no matter the boat or purist intentions. Motoring into the wind in a any kind of chop that proper wheelhouse and raised bow will be a lot better than having water continually washing over your pilot house windows. I've not sailed one though so don't take my word for it but it seems fairly obviously which would be better for that.

Rather than asking here you'd probably be better to loiter at the yacht club bar and see what the locals say works for your area.
 
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Athomson said:
These walk through videos are great aren't they Moody Eclipse 33 - Boatshed - Boat Ref#301440 - YouTube and
very helpful. There is also the other size Fishers and Nauticats to consider perhaps better in light wind than a Fisher but still a proper wheelhouse rather than a compromise raised coach roof thing like the moody. If you've not seen one in the flesh fishers are impressively substantial things, I don't know the full heritage of the design but not hard to guess its an evolved design which will look after you in rough seas. I'd value that highly in an area with rapidly changing weather.
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The Fisher is a pastiche of North Sea fishing hulls drawn by Wyatt and Freeman and turned into "yachts" by David Skelton. You only have to look at the vital statistics sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fisher-37-ms to see that they are on the motor end of the motor - sail continuum. compared with the Eclipse sailboatdata.com/sailboat/moody-33-eclipse The extremes of the continuum are demonstrated with the old Nauticat ranges where they had a clear distinction between "motor" and "sailers". the 331 is a very different boat from a 325. Of course it is difficult in this size range to get a reasonable performance sailing boat with a full standup all weather wheelhouse like the Fisher - that is the compromise which results in boats like the Eclipse and the 325 - sailing boats with an inside helm and a raised saloon. As you move up the size range you can increase the size of the deck saloon like the Regina 38 and by the time you get to 40+ foot you can have the best of both worlds with boats like the Nauticat 42.

Boats like the Fisher were never going to be mass market as few people want that compromise so will always be expensive. Fisher made this a virtue and loaded them with high cost kit and finishes. Moody on the other hand aimed their boat at the market that wanted good sailing performance with an inside steering position and a raised deckhouse at an affordable price. It worked. Later on Jeanneau and Bavaria did similar with their larger DS and Vision ranges, although they dropped the dedicated inside steering allowing owners to use their remotes from down below in the raised deck saloons.
 
Tranona said:
The Fisher is a pastiche of North Sea fishing hulls drawn by Wyatt and Freeman and turned into "yachts" by David Skelton. You only have to look at the vital statistics sailboatdata.com/sailboat/fisher-37-ms to see that they are on the motor end of the motor - sail continuum. compared with the Eclipse sailboatdata.com/sailboat/moody-33-eclipse The extremes of the continuum are demonstrated with the old Nauticat ranges where they had a clear distinction between "motor" and "sailers". the 331 is a very different boat from a 325. Of course it is difficult in this size range to get a reasonable performance sailing boat with a full standup all weather wheelhouse like the Fisher - that is the compromise which results in boats like the Eclipse and the 325 - sailing boats with an inside helm and a raised saloon. As you move up the size range you can increase the size of the deck saloon like the Regina 38 and by the time you get to 40+ foot you can have the best of both worlds with boats like the Nauticat 42.

Boats like the Fisher were never going to be mass market as few people want that compromise so will always be expensive. Fisher made this a virtue and loaded them with high cost kit and finishes. Moody on the other hand aimed their boat at the market that wanted good sailing performance with an inside steering position and a raised deckhouse at an affordable price. It worked. Later on Jeanneau and Bavaria did similar with their larger DS and Vision ranges, although they dropped the dedicated inside steering allowing owners to use their remotes from down below in the raised deck saloons.
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Have you sailed a pilot house boat like the moody? I can't help thinking that at the time you'd most want that inside position it will be the worst time to see anything out of the windows. With the pilot house being the saloon and galley being in front of the helm position at night light is going to be bouncing around off the windows which are meters away from you. Any water on the windows will make it impossible to see out. I can see the idea, lower boom = bigger sails but it seems like a compromise too far in every other way. But they sold quite a few... But then perhaps it works in marinas, nice and airy saloon, and people don't steer from inside because it doesn't really work but they don't hold it against the boat? The one in the video walkthrough has an out of commission internal helm. Maybe many owners don't use it as I imagine a Scottish owner might be thinking he was going to use it. Long winter nights, much wet weather. I'm not that bothered if I'm sailing or motoring though so maybe very different to John but that satisfaction of turning the engine off and feeling it pulling along peacefully under sail won't be much different in either. If not in a hurry and just pottering around locally.
 
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