Buying from a broker, what's at risk ?

[Tranona]

But, if I may say so, it seems you are at the top end of professionalism. I can't say the same about all the other brokers out there.

And where is your evidence to support this statement. Might I suggest you keep to FACTS rather than express unsupported opinion.

 

[jonic]

Sorry
can you clarify what that means? For your protection or the client?

The bank account is for the client the insurance is for both.

Bank account to separate client monies from my business. If I went bust their money is safe.

Insurance to pay out to client if I am sued for professional negligence or damage to people or boats.

 

[jonic]

And where is your evidence to support this statement. Might I suggest you keep to FACTS rather than express unsupported opinion.

Steady on....the first bit is true.

 

[Tranona]

Steady on....the first bit is true.

Yes, but I think you are being exploited for the purposes of some very dubious arguments! In terms of compliance I am sure the majority of brokers adopt the same approach as you do, and no doubt there is a minority that does not. However certain people here think the opposite is true!

 

[jonic]

Yes, but I think you are being exploited for the purposes of some very dubious arguments! In terms of compliance I am sure the majority of brokers adopt the same approach as you do, and no doubt there is a minority that does not. However certain people here think the opposite is true!

I am beginning to think you are correct, hence asking for real world stories.

I have been amazed at the brokerage perception in here. Is it a motor boat thing?

 

[Tranona]

I have been amazed at the brokerage perception in here. Is it a motor boat thing?

There seem to be some who think the world is full of rogues and vagabonds out to screw them at every opportunity.

To be fair I think there is much more risk in buying a big powerful MOBO. There is so much money at stake and so many more potential problems with engines and electronics, never mind the complex domestic equipment.

Having built and sold such boats I fully understand the anxiety - and arguably there are a lot more charlatans in that scene than in sailboats. On the purchaser side there seem (from my experience) to be more inexperienced people who have the money, but are nervous about what they are getting into.

On the other hand I still deal with many owners and buyers of such boats that are extremely knowledgeable and passionate about their boats - so it is too easy to generalise. And I guess folks who take polarised positions on specific issues, as in every other walks of life are not necessarily representative!

 

[ColdFusion]

That is just absolute rubbish. You cannot produce one example of a broker "emptying" a client account that would justify an unnecessary and unworkable "compensation" scheme - that is there is nothing and nobody to compensate. The brokerage is governed by the law of the land in respect of misrepresentation, agency and contract and just like any other person fraud and theft - plus they carry professional indenmity insurance. What else is there to cover?

You are just tilting at windmills. Effective legal regulation already exists.

Insurance protection for client accounts is necessary and is entirely workable. To suggest otherwise is just laughable. The brokerage industry is currently unregulated and all through this thread you have fought against it and anything that improves protection for buyers. Why is that? Is it because you work in the industry or do you just enjoy arguing for the hell of it? Or both? No reputable and professional broker has anything to fear by industry regulation.

 

[PaulGooch]

Yes, but I think you are being exploited for the purposes of some very dubious arguments! In terms of compliance I am sure the majority of brokers adopt the same approach as you do, and no doubt there is a minority that does not. However certain people here think the opposite is true!

I don't think anyone is saying the opposite is true. I've said several times, the contract that Jonic posted is fair to all.

So, why can't all brokers use it, simple !

Although it's an ABYA contract, it seems not all members use it, why ?

Whether or not anyone has been refused the refund of the deposit is certainly not clear, i don't personally know of anyone. But, some brokers are clearly telling buyers that would/could be the case if they rejected the boat because they simply didn't like it. I have been told this personally by a broker and one broker in this thread has been very vague about the situation (an ABYA broker too)

Why is it so objectionable to expect a contract such as the ABYA one from all brokers ?

Really, why ?

 

[PaulGooch]

<snip>generalise. And I guess folks who take polarised positions on specific issues, as in every other walks of life are not necessarily representative!

Wow, pot kettle and black spring instantly to mind

 

[ColdFusion]

And where is your evidence to support this statement. Might I suggest you keep to FACTS rather than express unsupported opinion.

I'll express whatever I wish - whether it be fact or opinion. After all, this is a discussion forum isn't it? Might I suggest that you reflect on that.

 

[ColdFusion]

Yes, but I think you are being exploited for the purposes of some very dubious arguments!

I happen to think some brokers are professional, helpful, hard working and genuinely want to do the best they can. I also think some are open minded to suggestions for improving the current system. Does that mean they are being exploited? Really? Why? Please explain.

Equally I think that some brokers aren't worth paying a penny, are lazy, unhelpful, entrenched in their way of doing things, won't consider other suggestions and think they can hoodwink buyers by relying on their interpretation of the contract terms.

There are good and bad brokers out there, clearly. I think there is an opportunity to bring the bad guys into line through regulation, and provide protection from wrongdoing for the parties involved in the deals they broker. This would benefit the whole industry. Why are you so against this?

 

[ColdFusion]

...On the purchaser side there seem (from my experience) to be more inexperienced people who have the money, but are nervous about what they are getting into.

That was my point several pages back. Hence my suggestions to make relatively small changes to the current buying process to draw those nervous, inexperienced buyers in. The current process frightens some of them away.

 

[DAKA]

I guess folks who take polarised positions on specific issues, as in every other walks of life are not necessarily representative!

Lets find out
Time for a poll, I recommend Paul posts it (its his thread and concern after all ) but before he does he lets you view a draft bu PM in case you feel it is weighted in favour of regulation.

If you are in the industry either as a Broker or advisory capacity you need to realize that even if you are right, there are issues that need addressing to keep the customers happy.
I guess that all the posters that are not happy with the system are customers and the ones who want to leave it as it is have interests.

POLL answer as many questions as you like.

Are you comfortable in handing large sums of money to an Unregulated unsecured Yacht Broker no

would you like yacht Brokers to be regulated and owe you a duty of care yes

would you like to see a compensation scheme in place to cover your money if the Yacht Broker fails to yes

Have all the yacht brokers you have dealt with been honourable hell no

Do you find yacht Brokers friendly and helpful appeared to be at the time but what ******** *********



In case Paul decides not to run a poll I have taken the opportunity to answer

 

[PaulGooch]

<snip>

In case Paul decides not to run a poll I have taken the opportunity to answer

I'd be happy to start a poll Pete, just need to give some thought to the options, don't want anyone suggestion the questions are loaded.

 

[PaulGooch]

Having given this a little thought, here's the questions i would propose for a poll :

As a buyer, would you like to see improvements made to the system

As a seller, would you like to see improvements made to the system

Does the current system of client accounts adequately protect buyers

Have you had a bad experience when dealing with a broker

Should brokers be regulated

Each question will have a yes and no option, you can answer as many questions as you want.

I had hoped to avoid the issue of client account, as that's not what my original post was about. But, as it's been discussed i've added a question about that too.

I would like to reiterate, this thread and the proposed poll is not an attack on all brokers. I recognise and accept that the majority of the brokers out there are honest and hard working.

Any particular objections to the poll questions please, and why.

 

[DAKA]

perhaps add



would you like to see regulation which adds a Brokers duty of care to the buyer ?

 

[ColdFusion]

Perhaps also add:

Would you like to be able to have a sea trial after paying a nominal non-refundable deposit to cover expenses only (minimum of £200) and be able to back out of the contract for any reason within 48 hours of the sea trial?

 

[Nautibusiness]

The thread seems to have lost it's purpose now.

A similar thread on WSF has now degenerated to veiled threats and personal insults from Nautibusiness so i'l make this my last post.

Many thanks to all who have contributed. In particular, thanks to Jonic for sharing the contract details, those are just what some of us were asking for. Why, as an ABYA registered broker, Nautibusiness doesn't use the same contract and has argued against it, i can't say.

Paul

As far as I can tell, you should be chucked off any forum that has the misgiving of seeing you on it.
You do nothing but try to belittle people and dig some dirt.

I have never said I use any other contract, I have ALWAYS said I work to ABYAs suggested terms.
The fact is I use ABYAs recommended contract. I have to admit that I need to thank Jonic for something as it seems that they have updated it for 2011 and so our 2010 version will need to be revised accordingly, but I really can't see why I have to prove it to you, a BL@@DY used car salesman!
Talk about the lowest form of life known to man!

I have finally worked out why you are so suspicious of everyone and anyone else and it's entirely because you feel they way act in a similar way to individuals within your industry.

Why you think I have a duty to you personally I have no idea.
I have never met you, never threatened (veiled or otherwise - but you should see what some of the PMs say, they are very good suggestions) and never actually want to meet you.

Please do not sit and slate me in an open forum, if you have a problem, use the PM system. Oh I forgot, you don't like to.

I apologise sincerely to all decent users of this forum for this outburst of mine, but this man is a creep of the highest order that will not let it lie.
Just because I haven't answered his questions he decides to make up stories about me.
He is laughed at universally by any of the professionals within the marine industry from the angling forum I frequent and many who used to use the forum but left as it was being taken over by people like him.
Sadly, he has found this one too and I suspect the silly little man will send it the same way.

For anyone that is being sucked in by his helpful little ways I promise you should see the otherside to him. He is a nasty little man that builds is own pedestal to stand on.

 

[DAKA]

Please dont respond Paul, unless its an apology , I missed what went on but it is too late now.
We need professionals on the forum, they add great value and must be made to feel very welcome at any cost.

I am sure we will all be eager to see the above mentioned poll and then we will all know if it is just a handful of customers that are unhappy with the current system in which case such threads can be ignored.

 

[Boo2]

You've now paid for a survey, the surveyor for the sea trial and a lift in. None of these are any use, because the seller wants you to pay half the cost of a new engine, or he'll give you back your deposit.

You chose to incur those costs so they are your responsibility. If you have been offered half the cost of a new engine then I personally would consider that a fair reduction taking into account the change in value of the boat and the percieved increase in reliability etc. If you don't agree then you are not being forced to accept.

The seller has tried to con someone and the broker has made no checks. The broker and seller have both ensured that they cannot be out of pocket, nothing is in place to prevent the buyer from losing out.

You only lose what you choose to put in so it seems to me to be fair enough. The situation wrt surveys applies equally when you buy a house or have the AA perform a vehicle inspection so...

Not sure that's fair.

Well life's a female dog, huh ?

I'm interested in what the contract says too.

Too late to read it after the event...

Boo2