Buying from a broker, what's at risk ?

[beejay190]

take you point nautibusiness, on occasion I have had customers come to me and give me a spec for a vessel they want, make , size year, model price guide etc. They leave it with me to seek out such a vessel. In these instances I have confidence that if I find a vessel which meets his requirements then the chances are a free sea trial (with owners permission) is on the cards, as I know he is serious.

On the other hand someone walks in the shops having picked a boat from the window display saying he is looking for a boat not sure what he wants yet, but can he try out this one. Not really on.

Both Nautibusiness and I were messed around last year when my boat was on brokerage. Someone spun a good story and got a free ride one sunny afternoon last summer. Nautbusiness lost time and money ; my raised hopes were dashed : I was seriously angry (doesn't happen often these days !)

Boat was sold shortly afterwards to another buyer;

but

I SHALL NEVER EVER GIVE PERMISSION FOR A FREE SEA TRIAL AGAIN.

 

[ColdFusion]

I SHALL NEVER EVER GIVE PERMISSION FOR A FREE SEA TRIAL AGAIN.

And quite right too. My suggested way forward would have avoided giving a free sea trial.

 

[PaulGooch]

You can't simply take someone for a trial because they pop in the office and say,

"I fancy buying a boat and that one looks nice. Can I have a go please?"

You need to qualify them enough to find out whether they
a) Really fancy buying a boat
b) "That one" really is the one they should be buying

Once properly qualified, if everything looks positive then suject to satisfactory sea trial should be no problem. At the end of the day if the buyer has let you know exactly what he wants and you know that this particular make and model do exactly that then the sea trial will not fail unless the boat breaks, sinks, engine blows up etc etc.
If properly qualified you have minimised the risk of the sea trial not being satisfactory unless the buyer has given you a complete load of twaddle in the process (and some a very good at that) and this is where the 10% deposit comes in. Refundable or not, handing someone a big wedge like that to look after for you isn't going to happen if you are just full of twaddle.

Paying a non refundable fee works in principal, but when the first question someone asks is "Can I have a test drive please", it is harder to properly qualify them in the first place.
You end up wasting a hell of a lot of time messing about on the water.

Now i'm not sure what i'm getting. You told me if i paid you for a deposit, it would be "subject to satisfactory sea trial". I find the noise level totally unsatisfactory and would like to reject the boat please, give me my deposit back.

Will you give it to me ?

Brings me back to questions 1 and 2 of post #1

 

[boatmaster]

Any self respecting broker would, a simple contract would state that a deposit is refundable after demo for anything detrimental or unsatisfactory that could not have been determined prior to sea trial or survey, (or similarly worded). this eliminates quibbles over curtain colours and carpet stains.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

It's all very well talking about tyre-kickers but what about the buyer who genuinely doesn't know what he/she wants and is quite happy to admit it. Maybe they like the idea of a boat but don't know what the reality will be. They're quite upfront about it and don't expect a free ride, but nor do they expect to be ripped off? Most people on this forum know what they're doing already and have a circle of contacts they can call on for info and opinions. Not all prospective buyers are in that position.

What about, for example, someone who's sailed for long-time but who's long-term partner has never sailed with them (doesn't like "tippy boats") but has finally agreed to consider a 25-30' weekender/cruiser so that at least they can get out on the water together? The response from Oceanique in Poole when I suggested I'd cover fuel and any other costs for a couple of hours (including paying full whack for a lift-in and out) was so abrupt and rude the girlfriend was put off the idea completely. This was despite me viewing the boat with someone who actually had his Cranchi in Cobbs at the time. What made me so angry was that it was a broker sale and he wasn't even willing to put the idea of a non-refundable deposit with no commitment on either side to the seller. In other words he could even sell the boat to someone else before the trial and all he had to do was give me the "deposit" back. Ironically the boat became a repo sale about 6 months later.

 

[boatmaster]

It's all very well talking about tyre-kickers but what about the buyer who genuinely doesn't know what he/she wants and is quite happy to admit it. Maybe they like the idea of a boat but don't know what the reality will be. They're quite upfront about it and don't expect a free ride, but nor do they expect to be ripped off? Most people on this forum know what they're doing already and have a circle of contacts they can call on for info and opinions. Not all prospective buyers are in that position.

Very true they are not and a good broker will recognise the 'freshness' in his lookers and invest some time in the hopes that they may just buy a boat from his company. a broker generally is experienced in people skills and early weighs up a fender kicker from a genuine buyer and acts accordingly but now and again may get it wrong, for those the broker misjudged, they move on!

What about, for example, someone who's sai
led for long-time but who's long-term partner has never sailed with them (doesn't like "tippy boats") but has finally agreed to consider a 25-30' weekender/cruiser so that at least they can get out on the water together? The response from Oceanique in Poole when I suggested I'd cover fuel and any other costs for a couple of hours (including paying full whack for a lift-in and out) was so abrupt and rude the girlfriend was put off the idea completely. This was despite me viewing the boat with someone who actually had his Cranchi in Cobbs at the time. What made me so angry was that it was a broker sale and he wasn't even willing to put the idea of a non-refundable deposit with no commitment on either side to the seller. In other words he could even sell the boat to someone else before the trial and all he had to do was give me the "deposit" back. Ironically the boat became a repo sale about 6 months later.

as said before a broker wieghs up a situation. I have worked in a broker environment for a relative and see it from both sides. had you put the same offer to me, i probably wouldnt have accepted, But would have been diplomatic with my decline and gently tried another ammicable approach. Equally, while a broker makes subconcious judgements and acts accordingly, its the buyers perogative too to judge and move on if they are uneasy. we all find good and bad in all walks of life. its not a perfect world.

 

[gjgm]

as said before a broker wieghs up a situation. I have worked in a broker environment for a relative and see it from both sides. had you put the same offer to me, i probably wouldnt have accepted, But would have been diplomatic with my decline and gently tried another ammicable approach. Equally, while a broker makes subconcious judgements and acts accordingly, its the buyers perogative too to judge and move on if they are uneasy. we all find good and bad in all walks of life. its not a perfect world.

But this isnt your boat; it belongs to someone else- the seller. I assume you mean you would discuss with the owner and see if he was receptive to your taking out a prospective buyer who does not wish to make any commitment at this stage?
If you as a dealer own the boat.. well that is different altogether, as this is now in the course of your business, and is not a private transaction.

 

[Nautibusiness]

Now i'm not sure what i'm getting. You told me if i paid you for a deposit, it would be "subject to satisfactory sea trial". I find the noise level totally unsatisfactory and would like to reject the boat please, give me my deposit back.

Will you give it to me ?

Brings me back to questions 1 and 2 of post #1

Yes if I had badly qualified you and not broached the subject of noise levels on that particular boat, but I would think we wouldn't get to that position, because we would have discussed everything you could expect before we went on the water.

 

[Nautibusiness]

Both Nautibusiness and I were messed around last year when my boat was on brokerage. Someone spun a good story and got a free ride one sunny afternoon last summer. Nautbusiness lost time and money ; my raised hopes were dashed : I was seriously angry (doesn't happen often these days !)

Boat was sold shortly afterwards to another buyer;

but

I SHALL NEVER EVER GIVE PERMISSION FOR A FREE SEA TRIAL AGAIN.

Remember it well Beejay.
It was a very plausible story they gave, much like the ones being discussed by all those who don't like the current system.
On the trial they loved the boat and if I remember it correctly said something along the lines of needing a couple of days to get the funds together...

That was the last we ever saw or heard of them. Didn't even pay for the lifts.

Entirely my error and lack of judgement, but perhaps it is one of the reasons why I like to follow a proven system that I know works for 99% of the sales we have.

Hope you are enjoying your new boat!

 

[PaulGooch]

Yes if I had badly qualified you and not broached the subject of noise levels on that particular boat, but I would think we wouldn't get to that position, because we would have discussed everything you could expect before we went on the water.

We did discuss noise, but obviously our expectation of noise are different. You think it's not noisy, i find it to be much loader than i expected. Now what ?

 

[Nautibusiness]

We did discuss noise, but obviously our expectation of noise are different. You think it's not noisy, i find it to be much loader than i expected. Now what ?

During the discussions I would have established that noise would have been a serious issue to you and if I felt this boat (eg: a MF805?) was noisier than a Crownline 250CR with a 5.0 MPI that you had also considered then I would have been very careful to point out that it would be far noisier.
So careful I would have actually got the DB readings from Jeanneau in advance of a trial.
-Don't joke, I've done it before for a MF655 with a D3 110.

Some boats are much noisier than others. Small shaft drive cruisers where you are standing / sitting on top of the engine are prime examples. Any experienced broker will be well up on different boats and so noise levels won't be an issue because they will be expressly covered in advance.
If DB levels, explanations as to why the boat will be noisier etc etc are still not enough then every effort to run the boat up before wasting time on a sea trial will be made before heading out to sea.

If after all that had been done and a sea trial still went ahead then there would be no reason why noise could possibly be used as a reason for backing out of the deal.

 

[PaulGooch]

During the discussions I would have established that noise would have been a serious issue to you and if I felt this boat (eg: a MF805?) was noisier than a Crownline 250CR with a 5.0 MPI that you had also considered then I would have been very careful to point out that it would be far noisier.
So careful I would have actually got the DB readings from Jeanneau in advance of a trial.
-Don't joke, I've done it before for a MF655 with a D3 110.

Some boats are much noisier than others. Small shaft drive cruisers where you are standing / sitting on top of the engine are prime examples. Any experienced broker will be well up on different boats and so noise levels won't be an issue because they will be expressly covered in advance.
If DB levels, explanations as to why the boat will be noisier etc etc are still not enough then every effort to run the boat up before wasting time on a sea trial will be made before heading out to sea.

If after all that had been done and a sea trial still went ahead then there would be no reason why noise could possibly be used as a reason for backing out of the deal.

So, "satisfactory", with regards to issues other than material defects, is down to the brokers definition of "satisfactory".

To me, "satisfactory sea trial" suggests that the buyer would need to be satisfied. If he's never had a boat before he has no frame of reference when you tell him boat x is a little noisier than boat y, or boat z rides a little high on the bow.

If you are defining "satisfactory" as within the normal spec's of the boat, and only classing defect as "unsatisfactory", surely the deposit is paid "subject to no serious faults during sea trial" ?


This is why i've repeatedly asked

What would the typical contract say, at the point of the buyer making the deposit, regarding things like :

1) Under what conditions could the buyer withdraw ?

2) Under what conditions could the vendor withdraw ?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

"seller retains any out of pocket expenses for the trial. "


so how many of these free sea trials on my Princess 560 (1.5 gpm) do you think I should do for free to wouldbe buyers, before I could draw the line and stop spending?

As I've posted earlier in the thread, I've sold many boats through brokers (15 and counting) and I will always agree to a pre offer seatrial, subject to satisfying myself as far as its possible that the buyer is genuine. OK so a couple of seatrials I've carried out at my own expense have not resulted in a sale but, so what? We are selling something that is the price of a house and some buyers are naturally reticent so you've got to sell your boat to them, not just say 'here you are, take it or leave it'. Of course sellers always have that prerogative but then they risk losing a potential buyer.
The seller could ask for a reasonable sum to cover fuel and any other expenses and I think that may be a way to go. Say a seller asked for £250 to sea trial a 40 footer for 1 hour, that would weed out most of the tyre kickers

 

[DAKA]

The seller could ask for a reasonable sum to cover fuel and any other expenses and I think that may be a way to go. Say a seller asked for £250 to sea trial a 40 footer for 1 hour, that would weed out most of the tyre kickers

When I asked to sea trail my current boat (private sale) I was taken out by the owner and his wife (no deposit paid).
On return I asked him to pull onto the fuel berth so I could fill it up for him.
( I cant remember if he allowed me to pay or not, we had a cil to make).
Asking for £250 for an hour may not suit everyone unless you have commercial charter insurance and a coded boat.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Asking for £250 for an hour may not suit everyone unless you have commercial charter insurance and a coded boat.

Yup, thats a good point but I dont think your insurance co or the MCA are going to worry about you charging a reasonable amount for expenses to cover a seatrial. Charter implies that you are operating a commercial venture for profit and clearly a seatrial for a prospective buyer is not that. £250 was just a figure I plucked out of the air. In any case, most sales contracts state that a seatrial is carried out at the buyers expense so, even if a contract has not been signed, the principle of a prospective buyer paying for a seatrial is well established

 

[DAKA]

Yup, thats a good point but I dont think your insurance co or the MCA are going to worry about you charging a reasonable amount for expenses to cover a seatrial. Charter implies that you are operating a commercial venture for profit and clearly a seatrial for a prospective buyer is not that. £250 was just a figure I plucked out of the air. In any case, most sales contracts state that a seatrial is carried out at the buyers expense so, even if a contract has not been signed, the principle of a prospective buyer paying for a seatrial is well established

Great idea Mike.........

As you know I have had my boat for sale for a couple of years now and I am currently taking bookings for sea trials from Weymouth next August

£250 an hour

 

[ari]

The seller could ask for a reasonable sum to cover fuel and any other expenses and I think that may be a way to go. Say a seller asked for £250 to sea trial a 40 footer for 1 hour, that would weed out most of the tyre kickers

I can hear it now.

"you're trying to sell me your boat and you want ME to pay for you to take it out and try and sell it to me? I wouldn't pay to test drive a £10,000 Ford Fiesta, what on earth makes you think I'm going to pay you to test drive your £100,000 boat? Do you want to sell it or don't you?" etc etc etc.

Oh, and followed by the obligatory posts appearing on YBW posts about "the cheek of it, how dare they, why don't they just take a 10% deposit, refundable if no go, balance payable if go like they used to?"

Seriously, if you're having to negotiate the sea trial fee before/as well as/after the boat cost you've just put another barrier in the way. People are not going to want to pay it because, as we've seen all the way through this thread, there is a prevalent attitude of "well if he wants to sell the boat he's going to have to make the effort".

As has already been mentioned, if this was the way to selling more boats, don't you think companies would be doing it already?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

I can hear it now.

"you're trying to sell me your boat and you want ME to pay for you to take it out and try and sell it to me? I wouldn't pay to test drive a £10,000 Ford Fiesta, what on earth makes you think I'm going to pay you to test drive your £100,000 boat? Do you want to sell it or don't you?" etc etc etc.

Oh, and followed by the obligatory posts appearing on YBW posts about "the cheek of it, how dare they, why don't they just take a 10% deposit, refundable if no go, balance payable if go like they used to?"

Seriously, if you're having to negotiate the sea trial fee before/as well as/after the boat cost you've just put another barrier in the way. People are not going to want to pay it because, as we've seen all the way through this thread, there is a prevalent attitude of "well if he wants to sell the boat he's going to have to make the effort".

As has already been mentioned, if this was the way to selling more boats, don't you think companies would be doing it already?

Sorry I dont see it like that. Any serious buyer for a £100k boat is not going to bridle at paying a modest amount for the cost of a pre-offer seatrial. Personally I'd see it as money well spent to find out just how much I liked a particular boat or not. Anyway the industry is doing it already without any charge. I could walk into most reputable boat dealers and ask for and get a seatrial in one of their demo or stock boats. The issue is how to tempt buyers for brokerage boats in the same way

 

[capsco]

See the post above this one, OP ask about "list/wobbly" motion on an F33, how would he go on when he/wife found out that they didn't like the motion on his sea trial, would he get his deposit back?

 

[Nautibusiness]

See the post above this one, OP ask about "list/wobbly" motion on an F33, how would he go on when he/wife found out that they didn't like the motion on his sea trial, would he get his deposit back?

If the boat reacted in a way that he wasn't expecting, noise, list, unstable then most brokers would return the deposit.
However, if the broker had explained exactly how it would react, he undertsoond what was being described and accepted this was a trait of the boat and still had the trial with full understanding that this is what would happen then there is a case for the deposit being held.
Depending on circumstances I would expect most brokers would deduct "reasonable" costs and return the remainder of the deposit.