Buying from a broker, what's at risk ?

[Nautibusiness]

But isnt that we all do anyway, by the time we get to a sea trial ?

You would hope so and the point being is that if you have done everything you can to be sure that this is THE boat for you then the sea trial is the icing on the cake unless it proves to be a lemon during the trial in which case... walk away or renegotiate based on the reaons for it being a lemon.

 

[ColdFusion]

I did just look up RYA contract...

I would do too, but it seems you now have to be an RYA member to view their contract Is there anything special about the RYA contract that makes it worth paying for or would one of these do the job?

http://www.oceanmarinellc.com/brokerage/PurchaseandSaleAgreement.pdf

http://www.beaufortyachtsales.com/beaufort_yacht_sales_purchase_agreement.htm

http://www.marineconcepts.net/documents/purchase.pdf

 

[DAKA]

That is really what is central to the argument. While the seller still owns the boat it is his perogative to determine whether he offers a trial or not. He has to judge whether his interests will be best served by allowing it. It is clear that there is very variable practice depending on the circumstances, varying from DAKAs experience to the No deposit, no trial response. Problem is one does not know the circumstances surrounding these decisions by sellers.

When I come to sell my boat I shall be open to a trial in principle, but only when I judge it will help make a deal - not in response to "Like your boat guv, any chance of a trial?" My boat will be competing with loads of other AWBs, but a sea trial may be my opportunity to show off the boat at its best. We shall see when the time comes!

Agreeing and adding in my opinion while I use a seatrial to get a punter hooked on my boat it isnt really what the seatrial is about.


You choose a boat and buy subject to sea trial.

If you dont like the ride in a head sea or its windy up top, thats not a reason to back out.

If the boat will not plane , or has a bad vibration/overheats then the seatrial shows a fault which is the purpose of the seatrial.

 

[ColdFusion]

What I don't get about this discussion is that some of you indicate you would be willing (or expect others) to put down a 10% deposit on a boat you may not have any experience of, on the assumption that during a later seatrial you will like the way the boat handles and performs, or if you don't like the handling/performance then you will have to ask for your deposit back (and maybe have a battle on your hands with a broker who thinks the boat handles/performs 'satisfactorily' (whatever that means)).

Yet if most sane people walked into a car dealership or a secondhand car showroom/forecourt and the salesman wanted 10% before a test drive in a car you had never driven before then most of you (I assume) would walk away. Why then is it any different when buying a boat?

To my mind the boat buying process seems biased against the purchaser. There is an example, above, of someone who purchased a boat and described the process as being one of the most difficult he had been through. I am sure he is not alone.

IMHO brokers need to up their game. The last one I spoke to couldn't be bothered to get up out of his chair when I walked in, didn't acknowledge that I was even there, and then gave me the impression that I had greatly inconvenienced him when I walked up to his desk and asked about a particular boat. Another broker (abroad this time) expected me to wire him 10% of the asking price based on what eventually turned out to be some out of date and selectively taken photographs. I am sure there are some good brokers out there, but there seem to be a lot of bad ones, too.

[edit] I've just remembered an experience from about 20 years ago. Walked into a local bike dealership to be met with initial apathy followed a while later by, "don't sit on the bike unless you're buying". I walked out. The following weekend, 80 miles further north, a salesman greeted me with "hello sir", asked if I'd come far and asked if I'd like a tea or coffee. A couple of hours later, I spent £8K on a new bike. Brokers listen and learn!

 

[gjgm]

I would do too, but it seems you now have to be an RYA member to view their contract Is there anything special about the RYA contract that makes it worth paying for or would one of these do the job?

http://www.oceanmarinellc.com/brokerage/PurchaseandSaleAgreement.pdf

http://www.beaufortyachtsales.com/beaufort_yacht_sales_purchase_agreement.htm

http://www.marineconcepts.net/documents/purchase.pdf

You can find a RYA agreement on the net, though I dont know if it is the most up to date one; note- Agreement not Bill of Sale.
There is one for Brokers Assoc. too, which I think differs a bit.
So, you do need to read the contract, you are about to sign and agree those terms. If you dont agree them, change them in advance.

 

[capsco]

You can find a RYA agreement on the net, though I dont know if it is the most up to date one; note- Agreement not Bill of Sale.
There is one for Brokers Assoc. too, which I think differs a bit.
So, you do need to read the contract, you are about to sign and agree those terms. If you dont agree them, change them in advance.

THIS, perfect summary.

 

[Renegade_Master]

Quote cold fusion

Yet if most sane people walked into a car dealership or a secondhand car showroom/forecourt and the salesman wanted 10% before a test drive in a car you had never driven before then most of you (I assume) would walk away. Why then is it any different when buying a boat?

____________________________________________________________________

See my earlier post, maybe cos the dealership owns the car its his decision if he takes you for a ride, risking as he does, that you say after the ride, "just got some more of the same to try at another dealer I'll let you know"


Now what if you are the owner of a £150.000 boat listed with my brokerage, and I am merrily taking out wouldbe buyers, for free trips on the water in your expensive pride and joy,using your expensive fuel, and when you ask "well did put a deposit down"
I say well not actually they have gone off to try some more at other brokers before committing, and guess what they dont come back. Seen it happen.

And another thing what if we bash the boat on the way back into the berth, the joyrider would probably say "I'm not gonna buy a damaged boat"

 

[Tranona]

I would do too, but it seems you now have to be an RYA member to view their contract Is there anything special about the RYA contract that makes it worth paying for or would one of these do the job?

http://www.oceanmarinellc.com/brokerage/PurchaseandSaleAgreement.pdf

http://www.beaufortyachtsales.com/beaufort_yacht_sales_purchase_agreement.htm

http://www.marineconcepts.net/documents/purchase.pdf

These are uS agreements and, although most of the principles are the same there are differences. For example they assume that two brokers are involved, one acting for the seller and one for the buyer, or one acting equally for the buyer and seller. neither arrangements are common in the UK. Better to use a UK brokers agreement or for a private sale the model RYA agreement, both of which cover most transsactions and are capable of amendment to meet the needs of individual transactions.

 

[Tranona]

To my mind the boat buying process seems biased against the purchaser. There is an example, above, of someone who purchased a boat and described the process as being one of the most difficult he had been through. I am sure he is not alone.

This is not the case as a number of us have tried to explain. The contract is between equals and the model contract is very careful to ensure that both parties agree to terms and conditions in advance so reducing the chance of subsequent disagreement and providing an agreed framework for resolving any disputes.

Sometimes you can't avoid complexity. A big boat is a complex piece of equipment and expensive. Both buyer and seller are aware of the finality of the transaction, so it is not surprising that they may be nervous and cautious about making the committment. For most it is the second largest purchase they make apart from buying a house - and compared with that process, buying a boat is a doddle!

So please keep a sense of proportion. The vast majority of transactions go smoothly, but if you took the lead from some of the posts here you would think that every one is a disaster about to happen. That is just not the case.

 

[gjgm]

To my mind the boat buying process seems biased against the purchaser.

I think this is answered in one of the posts above, somewhere, but perhaps you are looking at it from a buyer's viewpoint. Maybe you wouldnt be so keen if the broker was taking people out for spins on your boat every weekend, with the supposed prospective buyer having shown no legal commitment. After all, you want him to sell your boat, right? So best he takes as many people out as he can.
You are of course right in that the buying process is biased against someone who doesnt know what he wants to buy, but then why should he be favoured by a private seller. The seller isnt running a business.
A seller may agree to whatever if he feels a purpose in doing so, but personally I would want to know why a buyer feels he doesnt want to follow the well established practice:
1. find a boat you want to buy
2. make an offer subject to xxx
3.survey+sea trial
4.complete sale.
It is of course very hard to get to point 4 if you are not even able to reach point 1.
Which brings us to the clear point that what people want from the obligation free sea trials is not to get to point 4, it is to get to point 1. Is that really a service a private seller is there to provide?

 

[Imperial One]

The RYA contract and the BMF contract are there as a guideline. Often they are OK as hey stand and it is what he UK boating fraternity like to see. Personally, as I have said elsewhere I prefer the DUtch contracts on new boats they are so much better at protecting a buyer.

You can ask for the terms of the BMF or RYA contract to be changed to suit your specific needs if you prefer but you will need to agree this with the seller.
As a broker I will always listen to both sides....the name is a clue...a Broker exists to broker a deal, to iron out any issues and to mediate if necessary.

On the subject of sea trials, you have to remember that on a brokerage boat it is NOT our boat to use willy-nilly, we have to have the owners permission, or presence, on the trial and they often ask for a serious display of intent, namely a deposit be held.

We certainly have had a joyrider on more than one occasion and it is not always easy to spot them, many are plausible enough.
An example of a joyrider being a guy came and looked at the range of new boats we had in stock said he liked one at £375,000 as it was ready for immediate delivery and he would buy her subject to a sea trial.
He had one, free of charge of course, (ie at my expense) then declared he and his wife and father in law would think on it and come back at the weekend.
He called again and did come back at the weekend.
BUT as he appeared on the pontoon at the allotted time, in addition to his wife and father in law, he had two mates with him, a picnic basket, some wine and insisted that I take him for an extended trip to Weymouth bay where he would lunch al-fresco and then talk about the boat again if his friends liked it!
As tactfully as I could, I suggested that he had been on a sea trial for an hour and a half already and this extended one was not needed but that I would still undertake to do so if he would now sign a contract or pay a deposit - fully returnable if he did not like the boat.
He got rather rude and abusive and as a result I refused to take him out again.
He said he would call the chairman of the company whose boat it was, on the Monday morning to complain that I had refused him a sea trial and that as his father in law was a lottery winner and he was paying for it I was going to loose the sale and he would buy the Bowrider that his wife liked more anyway!
Fine said I please do call them on Monday and I will take the consequence.
He did so and was told I had acted correctly.
What would you have done?

 

[gjgm]

Quote cold fusion

Yet if most sane people walked into a car dealership or a secondhand car showroom/forecourt and the salesman wanted 10% before a test drive in a car you had never driven before then most of you (I assume) would walk away. Why then is it any different when buying a boat?

____________________________________________________________________

Rather than compare to cars, how about houses. You dont ask a private seller if you can live in it for a bit first to see if you like it !

 

[ColdFusion]

This is not the case as a number of us have tried to explain. The contract is between equals

You're not listening, are you? A poster, above, has already stated that the process he went through in purchasing his boat was one of the most difficult he had been through. Do you think he is the only person who feels that way? The contract is not between equals. Far from it. The seller may not disclose defects and the broker acts purely on behalf of the seller - caveat emptor. So the purchaser has to incur costs - lift out and survey (let's face it, most people would not buy a boat over, say, £10K without a survey). It is only at this point that the buyer really knows the boat's worth to him. There is nothing equal about that.

Sometimes you can't avoid complexity. A big boat is a complex piece of equipment and expensive. Both buyer and seller are aware of the finality of the transaction, so it is not surprising that they may be nervous and cautious about making the committment.

Why should there be a commitment from the buyer (in terms of 10% deposit) until the buyer has satisfied him/herself via sea trial, lift out, survey and mechanical checks, that the boat is sound, free of defects and suitable for the buyer's intended use? The expense of a lift out and survey should be commitment enough at this stage.

For most it is the second largest purchase they make apart from buying a house

I have never paid a 10% deposit on a house. I've always paid 100% at the time of completion. Why should it be any different when buying a boat?

...and compared with that process, buying a boat is a doddle!

Not necessarily so. See the post, above, re: fraught buying process. You keep ignoring this and offer no solutions to make the process less fraught for the buyer.

 

[ColdFusion]

Maybe you wouldnt be so keen if the broker was taking people out for spins on your boat every weekend, with the supposed prospective buyer having shown no legal commitment. After all, you want him to sell your boat, right? So best he takes as many people out as he can.

I would expect a broker to contact me to get permission for/request a sea trial. Each request dealt with on merit. I would also expect the broker to have done some homework before contacting me regarding how serious and genuine it is thought the buyer really is. Maybe this is where a broker's 'expertise' could be worth something.

You are of course right in that the buying process is biased against someone who doesnt know what he wants to buy, but then why should he be favoured by a private seller. The seller isnt running a business.

Absolutely. And it's the job of brokers (and owners) to try to convince people to buy their boats. People view houses and test drive cars before deciding what is best for them and before having to part with 10% deposit. Why does anyone think it should be different for a boat?

A seller may agree to whatever if he feels a purpose in doing so, but personally I would want to know why a buyer feels he doesnt want to follow the well established practice:
1. find a boat you want to buy
2. make an offer subject to xxx
3.survey+sea trial
4.complete sale.
It is of course very hard to get to point 4 if you are not even able to reach point 1.

Point 1 should read, "find a boat you probably want to buy". How can you be sure unless the survey, sea trial, etc are 'satisfactory' (according to the buyers definition).

I suspect "the well established practice" was put in place by brokers, not buyers. It is biased against buyers.

Which brings us to the clear point that what people want from the obligation free sea trials is not to get to point 4, it is to get to point 1.

No! Most people want to be sure they have found the right boat before committing to purchase it! Sure, there are timewasters out there. It's the same no matter what you are selling. But the present "established" method of buying a boat does, IMHO frighten some people away - especially potential first-time boat owners.

Is that really a service a private seller is there to provide?{/quote]

It's up to the private seller to decide if a potential buyer is genuine and not just timewasting. It also depends on how quickly s/he wants to sell their boat because inevitably, some perceived timewasters are in fact genuine and sales are lost. Look at my 'buying a motorbike' analogy, above.

 

[Resolution]

Coldfusion
You said " People view houses and test drive cars before deciding what is best for them and before having to part with 10% deposit. Why does anyone think it should be different for a boat?"

People view houses just as they view boats. Ever tried asking the house seller if you could stay for the weekend to see if you really liked living there?

And most house conveyances DO require a 10% deposit on exchange, with the balance on completion.

Cars are different in that they are more easily trialled, so it can be done quickly and at no real cost. They are seldom sold via a survey, so a trial is pretty important for the buyer. Most yachts or motorboats are put up for sale out of the water, specifically because this is needed to carry out the survey. So there is a real cost in getting it back to the water for a trial.

I'm sure brokers would love to be able to offer quick and easy trials, coz they only get paid when a deal completes. But life isn't always that simple.

 

[Tranona]

You're not listening, are you? A poster, above, has already stated that the process he went through in purchasing his boat was one of the most difficult he had been through.

Not necessarily so. See the post, above, re: fraught buying process. You keep ignoring this and offer no solutions to make the process less fraught for the buyer.

No, I am afraid it is you that is not listening. You are starting from the premise that the process is going to be fraught, whereas when you talk to brokers and buyers (See Ionic's earlier post for example), the vast majority of transactions are completely straight forward and all parties are happy with the outcome.

A purchaser has no special "rights" because he is a purchaser. He wants to buy another person's private property. Neither knows each other from adam at the start of the process and success is an outcome of reaching agreement. At some point both parties need to make a commitment that they are serious and the contract is a measure of that commitment. At that point the seller is accepting a number of risks such as not being able to negotiate with another and the buyer is accepting the risk that the boat won't be as described. The contract provides the framework for successful completion or resoulution if the boat fails to meet the terms and conditions of the contract. What could be simpler than that?

Problems can arise for all sorts of reasons, but every time this subject comes up, it seems that one of the main reasons for problems is a buyer's lack of understanding of what is involved or unreasonable expectations. Sellers can of course also be tardy - not supplying documents or making access difficult or not committing to accept an offer etc. However, you cannot legislate against these problems. The only thing that concentrates minds is a clear agreement on how to proceed which forms a binding contract.

As you are one of those who thinks it should be "simplified", please suggest specific changes that would be acceptable to both buyers and sellers.

 

[ColdFusion]

You are starting from the premise that the process is going to be fraught...

For some, it is. See the comments in the post, above, that I keep referring you to. You regularly rise to the defence of brokers on these forums, even in the face of first hand comments such as those above. I maintain that things are biased against the purchaser and that the buying process puts people off - especially those looking to buy for the first time.

At some point both parties need to make a commitment that they are serious and the contract is a measure of that commitment.

At some point, yes, absolutely. But not before a sea trial which is a useful mechanism for deciding if a particular boat is the right one. Even then, I still don't see the need for a 10% deposit. A contract, along with the expense of lifting out and survey should be commitment enough at this stage.

...it seems that one of the main reasons for problems is a buyer's lack of understanding of what is involved or unreasonable expectations.

I really think that is quite a condescending attitude to take towards buyers.

As you are one of those who thinks it should be "simplified", please suggest specific changes that would be acceptable to both buyers and sellers.

Viewing and sea trial without the need to sign a contract committing to purchase. (I think this frightens some prospective boat buyers away).
Offer made, negotiated and accepted.
Contract signed (10% deposit not required).
Survey, mechanical checks and re-negotiation if necessary.
Broker supplies buyer with Client Account details including letter from bank confirming account is protected from normal business use by broker. Client account backed by insurance indemnity by broker's professional body.
Seller passes all paperwork to broker relating to ownership, registration, receipts, manuals, etc.
Money paid into broker's Client Account and ownership of boat immediately transfers to buyer, along with bill of sale, transfer of registration and all paperwork, manuals, etc.
Handover keys.

The fact is, some people aren't too happy with the current process. You can either bury your head in the sand/grind your axe or accept that there must be a better way to draw buyers in and make the whole buying process as straightforward and risk-free as it can be.

Apart from nothing, what are your suggestions?

 

[ColdFusion]

People view houses just as they view boats. Ever tried asking the house seller if you could stay for the weekend to see if you really liked living there?

Hardly a fair comparison is it? I would, however, ask to test drive a car before handing any money over.

And most house conveyances DO require a 10% deposit on exchange, with the balance on completion.

Really? I'm on my seventh house and not once have I ever been asked for a 10% (or any) deposit, even when I was in a position to do so.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

The car analogy is valid but you have to remember what would happen if you rocked up to a McLaren or Veyron dealership and said give us a go on a car nearer the price of many boats. Even low-end dealership might baulk if a test drive would cost them a few hundred. The one thing I'm surprised at is the reluctance shown when a non-refundable deposit to cover all expenses is offered.

To me the big difference between a car and a boat buying scenario is that nearly everyone buying a car knows what it's like to drive one, even if they don't know the exact characteristics of a particular model. Take the case of someone who suddenly realises they have the money and that they fancy a boat, or even a life time raggie who's feeling a bit frail for proper sailing and wants to go to a MoBo. They may well not know what a semi-displacement feels like despite a few rides on friends planing hull perhaps. What should they do? Go and cadge a free ride of Aquastar or Fleming with no intention of buying new? Seems a tadge unfair on the dealer.

 

[gjgm]

No suggestions, because as a buyer and seller I have been perfectly satisfied with the process.
Sure, you can find a case where problems arise, but so what? It works for most people most of the time perfectly well. In fact the only flaw in the process from your point of view-if I have understood- is that private sellers are generally unwilling to offer sea trials to uncommitted buyers.
You have to try to look at this from a neutral viewpoint, not from that of an ignorant(in the meaning of uninformed) buyer, and bear in mind this is a PRIVATE sale,and the broad assumption is that the buyer is responsible enough to know what he wants.
If he does not, then he isnt actually saying to the seller "can I buy your boat", he is saying "can I try your boat". The seller might well feel that isnt the game he was playing.
Let me ask you a question. Would you be prepared to put 10pct deposit down (cleared funds, not a cheque), fully refundable, in order to have a sea trial?