Buying from a broker, what's at risk ?

[ari]

Ok, so a totally different scenario than just saying that you really are jolly interested and can I take you for a spin? Which is where we were, I think?
So,we are being specific now, yes?
Underpowered; 550 hp on a pretty light boat, so underpowered sounds unlikely
Handling- give Mr HJ Johnsen a call Or any mobo journalist
Sea sick- go back to playing COD 4
Bow up- you dont know how to handle the boat then
Noisy.. eh , its a powerboat with two big diesels behind you !

I am not providing you with a trip that is totally subjective to your whims.
If you have a specific concern that you raise in advance,we can discuss.
What would I keep you back from your deposit? Read the contract- you signed it. Oh, you dont want to be held to that?
Come on Paul.. its up to every buyer/seller to find a way, and every instance might be different. I am simply saying that I disagree with approach that a buyer is entitled to a free spin, and a totally subjective get out of jail card.
There is a legal process to clarify the situation for all parties; that legal process doesnt work too well if one party doesnt want to be held to it.
Maybe I would give all the deposit back; if i thought the guy was a total *** and joyriding, I might not be so charitable.

You wouldn't sell me a boat then.

Seriously, if you were potentially parting with £100,000 for a boat, happy to pay a deposit subject to satisfactory sea trial, and when you tried it the engines were so deafening as to give you a headache after 30 minutes, or so much spray came over that you had to dress in full oilies just to cross the bay, or you just really didn't like it, are you honestly saying that you'd smile and hand over the other £90,000 for something that you didn't want?

You'd regard that as perfectly reasonable?

Come on...

 

[DAKA]

Buying Privately

I thought I best keep out this thread as the forum already knows my views on buying from dodgy Brokers and being able to tell the good from the bad but I thiought I should post on the alternative of buying privately for comparison.

Find a boat for sale, usually far more comprehensive and accurate information is available from the owner who knows everything there is to know about his boat.

Felix not for sale just an example
Its more of a joint exciting adventure for both parties, buying or selling, time to make new friends

Make email contact and decide which ones are genuine.
Speak by phone
invite to the boat for a day
establish they are serious and have the means.
Offer to take them out if they pay for the fuel.
or if buying ask if you can pay the fuel for a cruise/seatrial.
Take them out for a champagne cruise
Find out about each other, exchange details so you both know you are not about to rip each other off.
people with boats have reputations, profiles, businesses, its not difficult to check.
offer/ask for a 3 month warranty if they pay full price.

£1000 deposit sign RYA contracts, survey at buyers expense , have a scrub, anodes a/f touch up as it will save you a lift out and thats it, exchange.

No middle man who adds risk.

 

[gjgm]

You wouldn't sell me a boat then.

Seriously, if you were potentially parting with £100,000 for a boat, happy to pay a deposit subject to satisfactory sea trial, and when you tried it the engines were so deafening as to give you a headache after 30 minutes, or so much spray came over that you had to dress in full oilies just to cross the bay, or you just really didn't like it, are you honestly saying that you'd smile and hand over the other £90,000 for something that you didn't want?

You'd regard that as perfectly reasonable?

Come on...

I would expect anyone seriously considering my- or any other private sale boat- to be convinced enough that this is the boat for him that he would put a deposit down. Generally, I suspect that is enough of a financial commitment to ensure that you dont get too many timewasters.
If you are testing a performance boat, dont whinge if its a bit fast and noisy. If you are testing a canal barge, dont whinge that it isnt very fast. If you are testing a totally average sportscruiser, dont whinge it isnt fast,sharp and has top sea handling. That's obvious.
I am not saying that as a buyer you now have to buy it, but you have signed a contract that ,subject to the agreement,commits you to buying it, or losing some/all of your deposit. You just signed this.. its there for buyer and seller.
If you dont want those terms, by all means discuss with the seller beforehand.
I dont think boats that are for sale privately are there for wannabe buyers to try out to their liking.
No, I doubt I would sell you my boat.Its mine to sell, of course.

 

[ari]

I am not saying that as a buyer you now have to buy it, but you have signed a contract that ,subject to the agreement,commits you to buying it, or losing some/all of your deposit. You just signed this.. its there for buyer and seller.

Not according to the broker who wrote further up this thread.

Subject to satisfactory sea trial. Am I satisfied? Not really it's much slower and noisier than I'd expected. Should I therefore lose or part lose my deposit?

The real problem with your system of course is that genuine people will refuse to place a deposit prior to sea trial for fear of being forced into buying what turns out to be a pup on trial, and then you really do have no filter for time wasters as not many (some maybe) will part with 10% for a boat they really have zero intention of actually buying.

 

[Tranona]

I thought I best keep out this thread as the forum already knows my views on buying from dodgy Brokers and being able to tell the good from the bad but I thiought I should post on the alternative of buying privately for comparison.

Find a boat for sale, usually far more comprehensive and accurate information is available from the owner who knows everything there is to know about his boat.

Felix not for sale just an example
Its more of a joint exciting adventure for both parties, buying or selling, time to make new friends

Make email contact and decide which ones are genuine.
Speak by phone
invite to the boat for a day
establish they are serious and have the means.
Offer to take them out if they pay for the fuel.
or if buying ask if you can pay the fuel for a cruise/seatrial.
Take them out for a champagne cruise
Find out about each other, exchange details so you both know you are not about to rip each other off.
people with boats have reputations, profiles, businesses, its not difficult to check.
offer/ask for a 3 month warranty if they pay full price.

£1000 deposit sign RYA contracts, survey at buyers expense , have a scrub, anodes a/f touch up as it will save you a lift out and thats it, exchange.

No middle man who adds risk.

This may seem "ideal" to you, but the reality is that people don't want to deal in that way. Sellers much prefer somebody else to do that side for them because they have neither the time, skills or inclinination to do it themselves. Buyers mostly seem to prefer dealing through a third party because it removes the need to create a social relationship in what is in fact a business transaction involving a large sum of money. Whatever you say about intermediaries they perform a useful function otherwise they would not exist.

By all means try to sell or buy in the way you suggest. Suspect you will find your choice very limited as you will need to find a buyer or seller with the same approach to you.

 

[gjgm]

Not according to the broker who wrote further up this thread.

Subject to satisfactory sea trial. Am I satisfied? Not really it's much slower and noisier than I'd expected. Should I therefore lose or part lose my deposit?

The real problem with your system of course is that genuine people will refuse to place a deposit prior to sea trial for fear of being forced into buying what turns out to be a pup on trial, and then you really do have no filter for time wasters as not many (some maybe) will part with 10% for a boat they really have zero intention of actually buying.

Hang on.. the normal process of buying a mobo is well understood. None of that includes a complimentary spin around the bay as a standard practice, yet boats seem to sell.
Several brokers have posted it is totally impractical to offer non committed sea trials, but some people always want a free lunch.
So, it does work, except for those who dont know what they want to buy anyway. Fine, but its not an obligation for private sellers to educate them.
Pay up, and go to a dealer. He is charging for providing the service you want, and legal safeguards, and a warranty perhaps- but maybe you dont want to actually pay for that.

 

[DAKA]

This may seem "ideal" to you, but the reality is that people don't want to deal in that way. Sellers much prefer somebody else to do that side for them because they have neither the time, skills or inclinination to do it themselves. Sellers mostly seem to prefer dealing through a third party because it removes the need to create a social relationship in what is in fact a business transaction involving a large sum of money. Whatever you say about intermediaries they perform a useful function otherwise they would not exist.

By all means try to sell or buy in the way you suggest. Suspect you will find your choice very limited as you will need to find a buyer or seller with the same approach to you.

All agreed, and from my limited experience Northerners appear to prefer private sale options where the Southerners are far too busy and tend to be far more private/withdrawn, Northerners can take this the wrong way and presume the owner has something to hide.

The last boat I sold I accepted a personal cheque after I had passed the boat on with the keys, such was the trust and bond I formed with another Northerner.

(and you had me down as someone who was untrusting !)

Not my current boat but my last boat ( the one that I refused to buy through BP Peters) the seller took me for a seatrial from Chichester to Port Solent leaving the boat on my berth , left me with the keys and allowed my wife and I to stay the night on it as I had a long drive home, this was on a hand shake that I would proceed.

Buying privately is a very different experience to the experience I had through Broker/dealers but lets not go there again.

 

[Tranona]

May well be a North South divide but buying and selling a boat is a rather risky basis for friendships! Great if it works and the social bit is important to you, but better for most if you treat it as a one off chance encounter. Do the deal and get back to your own life!

 

[ari]

Hang on.. the normal process of buying a mobo is well understood. None of that includes a complimentary spin around the bay as a standard practice, yet boats seem to sell.
Several brokers have posted it is totally impractical to offer non committed sea trials, but some people always want a free lunch.
So, it does work, except for those who dont know what they want to buy anyway. Fine, but its not an obligation for private sellers to educate them.
Pay up, and go to a dealer. He is charging for providing the service you want, and legal safeguards, and a warranty perhaps- but maybe you dont want to actually pay for that.

All of which is fine provided no one wants to make sure they like a boat before being 100% committed to buying it.

 

[DAKA]

May well be a North South divide but buying and selling a boat is a rather risky basis for friendships! Great if it works and the social bit is important to you, but better for most if you treat it as a one off chance encounter. Do the deal and get back to your own life!

Agreeing with what you are saying , now just elaborating in order to adjust your perception.....

The champagne is to help the purchaser enjoy their day on my boat and to encourage a speedy decision.
Sunseeker practice this very well and even have a live orchestra playing .

The friendship evolves from the questions you are asking

where the boat goes, how quickly, how many times has it broken down, whats it like in the rough, do you power on through F6 head seas causing damage , how long have you owned it and are you getting shut because its a pup etc

You arent going to get this from a Broker so you are buying into the unknown, someone could have died in your bed

Anyway enough of DAKA's ideas you get the general picture , happy to accept I dont share the majority s view.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

All of which is fine provided no one wants to make sure they like a boat before being 100% committed to buying it.

In the case I mentioned above, I was interested in buying an Ocean Alexander 390 many years ago. Up until then I'd had 4 planing boats and I really had no idea whether we were going to like the semi displacement OA 390. We liked the interior accomodation and the price but I hadn't a clue what the OA390 would feel like at sea. I explained all this to the dealer (long gone now) and asked for a seatrial prior to negotiating an offer. I reasoned that it was too risky for me to go through a tortuous negotiation, contract and deposit process because, in theory, once I'd signed the contract, I couldn't back out except if I found significant defects with the boat. A typical sale contract doesn't actually provide for a buyer finding out he doesn't like the way a boat goes during a seatrial.
I even offered to pay for the fuel and a skipper but the dealer was adamant. No deposit, no seatrial. I walked away thinking that the dealer was stupid to turn away a potential buyer. I know many dealers are more enlightened these days with trials of their stock boats but there still is a problem with potential buyers seatrialling brokerage boats prior to contract. I think sellers have to be more proactive in arranging seatrials for prospective buyers prior to contract, especially if they're selling something a bit unusual

 

[gjgm]

In the case I mentioned above, I was interested in buying an Ocean Alexander 390 many years ago. Up until then I'd had 4 planing boats and I really had no idea whether we were going to like the semi displacement OA 390. We liked the interior accomodation and the price but I hadn't a clue what the OA390 would feel like at sea. I explained all this to the dealer (long gone now) and asked for a seatrial prior to negotiating an offer. I reasoned that it was too risky for me to go through a tortuous negotiation, contract and deposit process because, in theory, once I'd signed the contract, I couldn't back out except if I found significant defects with the boat. A typical sale contract doesn't actually provide for a buyer finding out he doesn't like the way a boat goes during a seatrial.
I even offered to pay for the fuel and a skipper but the dealer was adamant. No deposit, no seatrial. I walked away thinking that the dealer was stupid to turn away a potential buyer. I know many dealers are more enlightened these days with trials of their stock boats but there still is a problem with potential buyers seatrialling brokerage boats prior to contract. I think sellers have to be more proactive in arranging seatrials for prospective buyers prior to contract, especially if they're selling something a bit unusual

And exactly an instance I would have expected a dealer to be open to the idea. Reasoned, understandable, and open about your uncertainty.
That doesnt seem quite the same concept as private sellers should be providing test drives to punters who dont know what they want to buy so the punter can make up his mind what boat he wants. Quite possibly someone else's.
Who would be a broker? Half the potential buyers think you are going to embezzle their money, and the other half want free trips around the bay . Amazing anything gets sold at all, really

 

[Morpheous]

I don't think anyone has suggested you should be able to go a private buyer and randomly ask for test drives until you find a boat you like. Certainly not me. I like the wording of the previous agreement where you can back out for reasons other than significant faults. I have no objection to a deposit on that basis. I was worried with my purchase because quite a few minor faults were found, as it happened we negotiated and I went through with the purchase.

 

[Resolution]

Many years ago some friends and I were faced with a long holiday weekend with no money and nothing to do. So we answered a private boat ad and persuaded the vendor we needed a trial sail. No intention at all of buying. Well, we had a wonderful day and ended up buying the boat.

we had so much fun with this boat that I became hooked and in the following 35 years I have almost always had a boat of some sort.

So maybe there can be a value in sea trials?

 

[hlb]

I dont know what the answer to this is, I'm coming from the other end. OK a bit of some thing might not work this time round. On the other hand I cant charge extra for ten grand of uprated gear boxes and twenty three grand of new bits. Or the new injectors this year.

 

[ari]

in theory, once I'd signed the contract, I couldn't back out except if I found significant defects with the boat. A typical sale contract doesn't actually provide for a buyer finding out he doesn't like the way a boat goes during a seatrial.

Not the case at all.

As the broker further up the thread explained "subject to satisfactory sea trial".

If you weren't satisfied you would be perfectly entitled to back out.

 

[Nautibusiness]

Not the case at all.

As the broker further up the thread explained "subject to satisfactory sea trial".

If you weren't satisfied you would be perfectly entitled to back out.

Yes, but he would also try and have established everything you were hoping to gain from the boat prior to the sea trial to establish that in his experience the boat would match expectations.

Foe example, if you came and placed an offer on a Merry Fisher 805 subject to satisfactory sea trial, but explained you want a 40 knot boat and a wind in the hair experience I would hope to have explained that the boat in question, whilst very good, will not achieve these wishes.

In short, if the boat doesn't meet the buyers expectations, established by the broker during the viewing/s a good broker will either establish that you actually don't want 40 knots and wind in the hair, but a good, stable cabin cruiser, that will cruise at 16 maybe 17 knots and get you home safely in most weather or that the Merry Fisher 805 isn't actually the right boat for you whereas the XPS34 alongside it may just tick those boxes instead...

Likewise, the same broker would try to make sure that you hadn't lined up half a dozen others to try "subject to satisfactory sea trial". Each Merry Fisher 805 will behave the same so assuming that is the boat you have zeroed in on if the one with that broker is a good example with a sound engine and hull and the broker has established all of the buyers requirements as matching the boat the sea trial almost becomes arbitrary, but part of the buyers rights to gaining ownership.

The sea trial is a very important part of buying a used boat IF that is what the purchaser wants. However, the broker will make sure it is the right type of boat in the first place before heading out onto the briney with the purchasers deposit in his client account.

 

[ari]

All makes perfect sense, thank you.

In essence what you're saying is that the sea trial is really a final piece of the jigsaw to confirm that the boat you are in the process of buying (rather than choosing) is what you expect, not just so you can "have a go"and see if you might fancy one.

However if it really is a no no for some (non material fault reason) then you're not absolutely committed, which is entirely fair and reasonable.

 

[Tranona]

I think sellers have to be more proactive in arranging seatrials for prospective buyers prior to contract, especially if they're selling something a bit unusual

That is really what is central to the argument. While the seller still owns the boat it is his perogative to determine whether he offers a trial or not. He has to judge whether his interests will be best served by allowing it. It is clear that there is very variable practice depending on the circumstances, varying from DAKAs experience to the No deposit, no trial response. Problem is one does not know the circumstances surrounding these decisions by sellers.

When I come to sell my boat I shall be open to a trial in principle, but only when I judge it will help make a deal - not in response to "Like your boat guv, any chance of a trial?" My boat will be competing with loads of other AWBs, but a sea trial may be my opportunity to show off the boat at its best. We shall see when the time comes!

 

[gjgm]

Yes, but he would also try and have established everything you were hoping to gain from the boat prior to the sea trial to establish that in his experience the boat would match expectations.

I did just look up RYA contract, and clearly it is important to read exactly what is being agreed, as their contract seems very flexible on walk-away (as I read it).
I would certainly prefer your wording and explanation. "Satisfactory" doesnt alleviate responsibility that he buyer must take reasonable effort to establish the boat is likely to meet his needs, and an assessment of performance,sea handling etc must be borne in relation to the boat in question.
But isnt that we all do anyway, by the time we get to a sea trial ?