buying an ex-charter yacht in Greece

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chrisowen

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I want to buy a 36 ft yacht in Poros, as a private purchase, not to continue to charter. What do I need to know about tax, lawyers, surveyors etc, when trying to manage the sale from England? Can anyone recommend good reading on the subject? Has anyone done this before?!! Thankyou /forums/images/graemlins/confused.gif
 
I spent a week or so in boat storage yards in NW Greece a year ago. Hundreds of modern charter yachts were lined up for the Winter. Very few of them did not have keel and/or rudder damage from hitting rocks. These were being treated cosmetically only. A charter boat gets more wear in a season than a private boat in a decade - and the punters are less careful Do get a full and reliable survey !
Good luck.
Ken
 
i do not recommened buying a charter boat by many reasons but in case, you decide to buy - a good survey is a must !
it is much better to have a look from a private owners.
i bought my boat via brokers - this is the safe way and of course, the seller pay the commission

nb
if you going to see the boat, i am also in greece, just let me know, and i can show you also my boat - one more boat to see, will not hurt your decision!
 
Chris

I have details of a very good solicitor in Pireaus that will give you excellent advise on how to proceed. He also has details of surveyors as well and unlike UK, there is quite a number of legal regulations and tax for boat ownership here in Greece.

Send me a PM with your email address and I will let you have his details and some of my advice.

I have also purchased an ex-charter vessel and it's not all dome and gloom.

Cliff
 
It`s not that difficult in reality. Of course you must have a full survey done by an independant surveyor.
It sounds like you are buying an ex charter boat which is not always a bad thing -- they get regular use and any faults are put right ready for the next charter but as ever be guided by your own thorough check as well as the surveyors.
If your yacht is a charter boat it will under a Greek flag . It will have to be de-registered from the Greek registry and Vat paid on the value shown on the Bill of Sale. Make sure that your Bill of Sale shows the Vat inclusive amount as you do not get a vat receipt in Greece ( at least I haven`t seen one yet).
Once you have the dereg proof you can pay the balance due and re register the yacht under British SSR or full registration.
Hopes this helps but always remember it`s your cash at risk so don`t pay anything at all unless you are certain that everything about the deal is satisfactory.
Good luck
 
You do get a VAT receipt in Greece. The German guy who owned my boat used to rent it out now and again as part of a two country leasing arrangement. I am registered for VAT in Greece which is necessay to get the certificate. You get a document stating what the tax people say is the VAT payable, a receipt saying you have paid and a VAT registration document.

Get your surveyor to give you a valuation while he is at it. It might be useful if you decide to pay elsewhere. The VAT is charged on length and age only in Greece.
 
We purchased our yacht from a charter company and are very pleased with how things turned out .The price allowed us to spend money on her to bring her back up to a very good standard .The charter company had maintained her enough for their clients but she was starting to look tired .She has now been updated with new cabin sole , hull stripes,lots of bits and pieces,interior re-varnished but nothing really major .She came with two year old sails ,new avon tender ,four year old yanmar,liferaft,all pots pans etc,stack pac, full length bimmini,windscoops plus lots more .We had her surveyed and she hadnt really got much wrong with her .The boat was de-registered from greek shipping register which did take a few months and we put her on SSr .Make sure you get the document confirming she has been de-registered from greek register as port police wanted to see that when we applied for greek cruising permit.We obtained a vat certificate as well .All in all it worked out very well for us although we did look at plenty of ex-charter boats that were well past their best and would need a considerable investment to bring them back .Good boats are there and worth waiting for .Its also a case of being in the right place at the right time and having local knowledge of whats comming up in the near future .
 
I have seen a few 'spoof ' 'VAT certificates'. When I got to Greece and wanted one, to ensure I got a bona fidi one I went to all the young boats and asked to look at theirs. Under cross questioning nobody had a genuine one. None had been challenged by the Greeks. Maybe I was the silly one actually paying!

Please can you describe the certicate. Mine is on the boat but it is two documents as desribed above plus my VAT registration.
 
Friends of ours bought an ex charter in Athens last year and it turned out VAT had not been paid (I think charters are VAT free the first x years). They got into a real mess with lawyer fees running through the roof. Something to look out for. We bought our boat from williams and smithells last year in Greece, and they are experts on boats sales in Greece. Highly reccommended www.williamsandsmithells.co.uk
 
The authorities can tell from the use declared in the papers of the boat. If it is a "private use" boat then VAT is payed. If OTOH it is a "professional use" (ie charter) one then VAT is not paid. That simple!
 
Are you talking about any authorities or specifically Greek authorities. I note you are in Athens.
And where do you find this 'OTOH' on my papers? Maybe you are thinking of the DTAKPA [sic] or the 'boats from elsewhere based in Greece' form.
And when you say VAT is paid, do you mean is to be paid or has been paid?

Thanks Glyka
 
I mean Greek authorities as I thought there was an issue about VAT certificates in Greece.

OTOH is "on the other hand" /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif

By "VAT is paid" I mean VAT has been paid (I felt that something was wrong with my use of English but I did hope that it would make sense anyway - wrong!)
 
Hi. Lots of rumours and conflicting advice flying around on this. We have just bought a boat in Marmaris, Turkey, through Sunbird International Yacht sales. The company is English, the boat was French registered VAT paid ex charter, the service from Sunbird (Peter) was excellent from our first enquiry email almost 2 years ago and is still excellent now several months after money changed hands.
My advice would be to go through a long established broker if you are at all uncertain; and get a thorough survey from a surveyer with references/qualifications.
It takes time!
Good luck,
Gerran
 
Ok, thanks. Please explain how the word 'private' gets written on a boat's papers. I was in Greece for seven years. The only papers I had were the DTHAKPA [sic] and the registration for foreign boats based in Greece. In both cases I provided the information that it was a private boat but one was brought in VAT unpaid but I still wrote 'private' on any form I filled up. And I filled up a few while I was in Greece. There are Port Police in most village harbours and they frequently ask that one 'report to the office with your papers' and I always did so. Even though the boat was less than two years old I was never asked for proof of VAT. I was the guy whos boat was impounded in Argostoli for refusing to buy a DTHAKPA but I was not asked for proof of VAT paid!
 
I think I was misunderstood. I was talking about Greek flag boats.

Let's see if I can explain what happens in Greece.

Every boat under a Greek flag has a "Nationality Identification" paper that is the boats ID. This is where ownership, size, type etc. are stated. In this paper, the use of the boat is also stated. In order to get such an ID for a new boat, if its use is going to be "private/pleasure" a proof that VAT has been paid must me presented. The same applies if you want to convert the use of a boat from "commercial" to "private". As a consequence, all boats with a "private use" ID are assumed to have paid VAT.

Obviously (from what you say), this assumption extends to foreign* flag boats. Until recently chartering a foreign flag boat was forbidden in Greece. So in most places when they see a foreign flag they assume that it is a private boat.

NOTE: 99.9% of Greek-flag charter boats have not paid VAT. If the seller claims that it has been paid, ask him to convert the use before buying!

All this reflects practice now. Things are changing and maybe tomorrow all authorities start asking for VAT proof from all non-Greek flag boats /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif But, unless strict orders are issued, I don't think that any island's authorities want to keep any tourists/clients away...

All IMHO.

* foreign in Greece means non-Greek and not non-British as you might think it should /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif /forums/images/graemlins/smile.gif
 
Nice description Glyka. Ties up exactly with my experience, and very clear.

There's been a lot of comment above along the lines of 'absolutely vital to have a good survey . . . etc'

Usually ex-charter boats are such a bargain that you've got cash in hand to deal with extensive renewals, so a survey becomes less important. Also, you don't know whether omissions and errors by a surveyor are worth the cost of recovery . . . and labour costs in Greece, especially for good diesel engineers, are very low. Perkins 4.108 pulled out, rebuilt with new liners/pistons/bearings/valves & guides, re-installed for €3,500?
 
Sorry for a thread drift but, do you happen to know how difficult it is to have a boats registration changed from British to Greek? ie, small mobo for private pleasure use. I only ask because i can keep afloat for six months, then haul out, I doubt there would be any problems if I left the boat in for longer, just a bit curious as to my options.
 
Not really difficult, but if the boat is bigger than 10m just don't do it:
<ul type="square">[*]Full inspection/survey every 4 years, survey at sea every 2.
[*]Life raft annual service
[*]VHF licence and annual clearance contract.
[*]Obligation to report (with crew list) on departure and arrival.
[*]Flares and fire ext. certificates
[/list]
and I'm sure I'm forgeting things...

Whereas <10m only a small booklet and that's all.

Anyway, being a foreigner, you 'd better let a pro do the paprework.
 
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