Buying a small yacht

[GrantD]

Agree with others, no such thing as a set amount - across the market, the key is standard of the boat.

Don't be tempted by lots of flash toys, keep the first boat smallish, basically but soundly equipped and well maintained and people will want to buy so expect to pay for it. If you donlt want it, someone will.

Donlt buy something that needs a lot of work as you won't get the money back at all and if you get to the stage of having to replace blown sails, mouldy interior upholstery and foul running rigging then you may have spent more on upgrades than on the boat. Might be worth it on £50k boat, Not so much on a £5k boat!

Thanks jac

Im drifting towards spending a little more on better now ?

Grant

 

[[178529]]

Convey

Thankyou you so much for the detailed reply

Great insights, just what I was hoping for

What do people think of this?

Slightly over budget but....

Leisure 27 for sale UK, Leisure boats for sale, Leisure used boat sales, Leisure Sailing Yachts For Sale Leisure 27 1979 - Apollo Duck

To follow on my previous post that looks a huge amount of fun and value for not a lot of money. They were solidly built boats in Essex, sailing performance about the same as a centuar. You'll probably want to replace the saildrive diaphram at some stage. Looks good to me.

 

[GrantD]

One thing I'd add here, I bought a 30ft boat as our first. Nearly five years later I'm still improving, upgrading, fettling etc. If you have a plan for a bigger boat, and you can afford it now, maybe consider going straight for it? Then you can spend time now learning about the boat and how to sail her, and slowly upgrading etc. Otherwise you'll lose money on the one you buy in the mean time.
Just a thought.

Crazy

Thanks

Yes that thought has occured to us

Current thinking is the proper boat is something like a 34ft Moody, aft cabin, less than 12m, bilge keel, seem well built and can be bought for my 30k teachers pension lump sum. But of course the Bavarias are sooooooo pretty ?

If I had the 30k now we might do that.
But

We feel we can treat a 2k loss as a training cost over 2 years


Grant.

 

[GrantD]

To follow on my previous post that looks a huge amount of fun and value for not a lot of money. They were solidly built boats in Essex, sailing performance about the same as a centuar. You'll probably want to replace the saildrive diaphram at some stage. Looks good to me.

Thanks

I have emailed them

It does look clean and looked after and it goes some way towards what crazy said, at a pinch it could take us to the Med

Yes Sail Drives make me nervous ?

Biiiig Hole

Grant.

 

[GrantD]

Good point. Toys go out of date quickly and leave lots of nasty holes and brackets to be fixed up. I'd be looking for a really nice stock one. Watch out for such equipment, electrical we're talking about, that is already obsolete and unsupported.

And soooo much messy wiring ?


Grant

 

[GrantD]

Yes, I was very impressed with Dylan Winter's acumen, buying a Centaur with a nearly new engine for less than the price of a new engine itself.

The sheer numbers of Centaurs on the market may have facilitated this opportunity - it's easier to haggle when you can point to so many other similar vessels on the market.

Since OP is in the solent area I suggest he visits Tudor and Hardway sailing clubs and see what's listed for sale on their noticeboards. There were three nice boats on the Hardway noticeboard last summer. A nonmember will probably be welcome at either on a weekend afternoon.

www.phoenixyachtclub.co.uk is good for getting a bit of experience and cheap Day / Coastal Skipper.

KK

Thanks

I will try that

I guess not everything is online?


Grant

 

[GrantD]

You will have such hassle selling whatever you buy that I would go straight for the type you want. And I would suggest you go to the parts of the world you most want to sail to and chat to some live aboards (they are grumpy/social/lonely/happy types like everywhere else but are always up for a chat about their boat).

See what works there and try to buy that. For us it’s lots of opening ports, a walkthrough stern (because that is your front door to quay and dinghy) and a large aft cockpit with a proper table for 4-6 as that is where you will be living 90 percent of the time). And I wouldnt touch a UK make for warm sailing because they are brilliantly designed for cold weather.

But each to their own. I gave away my 24 footer 8 years after I’d bought my warm water boat after countless attempts to sell it, hundreds of hours keeping it smart and decent and about 16k on mooring and 5k on a new engine. It took the 5k spend to enable me to give it away.

Cheers Rupert

Food for thought.

Selling what we buy is a concern ?

Grant.

 

[[178529]]

Thanks

I have emailed them

It does look clean and looked after and it goes some way towards what crazy said, at a pinch it could take us to the Med

Yes Sail Drives make me nervous ?

Biiiig Hole

Grant.

I wouldn't worry too much about saildrive. They are a much nearer installation than a shaft. Both require a hole through the boat. I had my last follboat fill up a couple of hundred litres of water on her swinging mooring through a drip in her shaft drive stengland.

I think, just from reading people's experiences on here, that saildrives have stood the test of time and that many people have changed the seals many many years after they should have and they have been fine when removed. I just mentioned changing it as one of those piece of mind jobs.

 

[duncan99210]

I think that there’s a real dilemma facing the OP. He’s looking for a way to gain experience before setting off as a long term cruiser/live aboard and is thinking along the lines of small and cheap before buying bigger for the long term.
As I approached retirement we faced the same choices. I didn’t fancy spending time sorting a “learner” boat out to my satisfaction so we bought the “big” boat straight off.
Downside was finding the money to fund it in advance of the pension payout, upside was the fact that we got our experience in on the boat we were aiming to live aboard. That was really an enormous advantage: we resolved all the little niggles on the boat in UK with no language barriers, had the fun of sailing her during the end of my time at work and were confident in our (and her) abilities in a seaway.
If the OP is determined to go this route, then I’d be very tempted to look for a next to no money small boat which is essentially disposable. Just about any boat from the late 60s/early 70s which is sailable will do; I’d go for something under 22 foot with an outboard. Minimal kit (echo sounder is all I’d want fitted) as a handheld vhf and gps on a tablet will suffice. Go sailing, prove to yourselves that it is what you want to do. When you finish work, either gift the boat and motor to the sea scouts/cadets or flog the motor (or keep it for the dinghy on your cruising boat) and send the boat to the Boat Scrap Yard (Boat Scrapyard) if there’s no interest locally.

 

[GrantD]

I think that there’s a real dilemma facing the OP. He’s looking for a way to gain experience before setting off as a long term cruiser/live aboard and is thinking along the lines of small and cheap before buying bigger for the long term.
As I approached retirement we faced the same choices. I didn’t fancy spending time sorting a “learner” boat out to my satisfaction so we bought the “big” boat straight off.
Downside was finding the money to fund it in advance of the pension payout, upside was the fact that we got our experience in on the boat we were aiming to live aboard. That was really an enormous advantage: we resolved all the little niggles on the boat in UK with no language barriers, had the fun of sailing her during the end of my time at work and were confident in our (and her) abilities in a seaway.
If the OP is determined to go this route, then I’d be very tempted to look for a next to no money small boat which is essentially disposable. Just about any boat from the late 60s/early 70s which is sailable will do; I’d go for something under 22 foot with an outboard. Minimal kit (echo sounder is all I’d want fitted) as a handheld vhf and gps on a tablet will suffice. Go sailing, prove to yourselves that it is what you want to do. When you finish work, either gift the boat and motor to the sea scouts/cadets or flog the motor (or keep it for the dinghy on your cruising boat) and send the boat to the Boat Scrap Yard (Boat Scrapyard) if there’s no interest locally.

Duncan

Thanks

That is so in line with one of our lines of thinking its uncanny, right down to the Sea Scout donation.

The other one is "screw it lets just buy the big boat"

My better half leans towards "lets be sure we like it first"

I worry a small, mod cons free boat might put her off sailing

She says it wont

One things for sure I dont want to give up the dream until I have tried it. Who wants to be 90 and regret what you were too scared to brave

Grant

 

[Praxinoscope]

You either love sailing from the moment you try it, no matter what size the boat, or you realise that it's not for you, again no matter what size of boat.But I would hesitate to go for broke and buy the larger yacht without a couple of seasons on a smaller boat just in case half the partnership decides that things that float and constantly move in odd directions are definitely a no go.
If finances allow for a trial purchase, get something not too big or small and that has a reputation for being a good sea boat, something about 25-26' is a good starting point, won't break the bank on purchase, maintenance, mooring fees etc. but will allow some good passage making whilst learning. Just make sure that it has been weekl maintained, has the bits and pieces you need to get on the water (not necessarily all the latest gizmo's) with it and avoid anything that is going to involve a lot of work on it, remember you bought it to use it not to work on it.
Centaurs are in the sort of range to consider, although would not be my choice, but there are several boats from that era which would suit and can be found in good sea worthy condition and under £5k.
Although the sailing characteristics of a fin keel are marginally better than bilge keel boats, I would suggest that going for a bilge keeler at this stage is useful as the mooring options are greater and the ease of drying out expands the places that can be visited.
I would certainly recommend attending shore-based courses as these can provide a good understanding of navigation, tides, meteorology etc.

 

[NotBirdseye]

But as a rough guide, is the general approach to overprice then take 2/3 or 1/2 or 10% less?

Housing market, mid 1980s, Sheffield, you always offered 20% less, it was expected.
South East 20teens, always got bid up, expected.

I dont mind £100 here or there but I dont want to be the mug who pays the asking price when everyone (but me) knows the real price is advertisedprice - x

Cheers
.grant

You pay how much the boat is worth, no more, no less. It is up to you to decide whether the boat type and it's condition is worth the price being asked. If it isn't... walk away. This 'bartering' thing is for scam artists to make a quick buck out of those that don't know any better. People who inflate the prices of their boats have no real interest in selling so it's not really worth your time to bother negotiating.

How you do this is you consider other similar boats on the market in a similar condition. You will quickly see a guide price you're looking for. If the boat is to the higher end, it should be in really good condition throughout. If it's to the low end you need to be asking yourself why. Get a survey, if the surveyor makes notes of problem that is when any negotiation comes in if at all. If the boat is as described and that's the boat you want. You pay the asking price.

Don't feel like a mug for paying what you think is a fair price. It will be worth every penny.

 

[RupertW]

You pay how much the boat is worth, no more, no less. It is up to you to decide whether the boat type and it's condition is worth the price being asked. If it isn't... walk away. This 'bartering' thing is for scam artists to make a quick buck out of those that don't know any better. People who inflate the prices of their boats have no real interest in selling so it's not really worth your time to bother negotiating.

How you do this is you consider other similar boats on the market in a similar condition. You will quickly see a guide price you're looking for. If the boat is to the higher end, it should be in really good condition throughout. If it's to the low end you need to be asking yourself why. Get a survey, if the surveyor makes notes of problem that is when any negotiation comes in if at all. If the boat is as described and that's the boat you want. You pay the asking price.

Don't feel like a mug for paying what you think is a fair price. It will be worth every penny.

Good advice if you are buying a boat for life but not if you want to sell it after a couple of seasons at a similar price.

 

[NotBirdseye]

If you purchased the boat for a fair price in the first place... there's no reason why that shouldn't be possible. Unless the market has took a down turn.

 

[convey]

Although the sailing characteristics of a fin keel are marginally better than bilge keel boats, I would suggest that going for a bilge keeler at this stage is useful as the mooring options are greater and the ease of drying out expands the places that can be visited.

Yes, especially if your other half is concerned about "lean", although I think what you're really talking about is tenderness, as in the tendency to tip in more quickly.

It's hard to know what things go for because no one lists sold for prices except at dumping zones, like Ebay. I've known good boats, properly maintained ones not like those on Ebay, go for half brokers' price (It's a terrible truth but the market's also a grave robbers one ... as in you'll also find many "estate sales" where relatives just want shot of the liabilities of a deceased's boat). You do also find genuinely good people who want to pass on a good boat quickly because they're wise to trap of holding on for the sake of a better price.

That's why I say get out and meet people.

I would not go for the cheapest one though, I'd go for the best maintained that I could afford. Look at the list of replaced and serviced items and work back from the value of replacing them, eg sails, rigging, engine etc. A smaller boat in a better state of repair would be my advice. Everything costs less by the foot. Generally avoid ones that have been used as non-sailing liveaboards.

 

[GrantD]

You either love sailing from the moment you try it, no matter what size the boat, or you realise that it's not for you, again no matter what size of boat.But I would hesitate to go for broke and buy the larger yacht without a couple of seasons on a smaller boat just in case half the partnership decides that things that float and constantly move in odd directions are definitely a no go.
If finances allow for a trial purchase, get something not too big or small and that has a reputation for being a good sea boat, something about 25-26' is a good starting point, won't break the bank on purchase, maintenance, mooring fees etc. but will allow some good passage making whilst learning. Just make sure that it has been weekl maintained, has the bits and pieces you need to get on the water (not necessarily all the latest gizmo's) with it and avoid anything that is going to involve a lot of work on it, remember you bought it to use it not to work on it.
Centaurs are in the sort of range to consider, although would not be my choice, but there are several boats from that era which would suit and can be found in good sea worthy condition and under £5k.
Although the sailing characteristics of a fin keel are marginally better than bilge keel boats, I would suggest that going for a bilge keeler at this stage is useful as the mooring options are greater and the ease of drying out expands the places that can be visited.
I would certainly recommend attending shore-based courses as these can provide a good understanding of navigation, tides, meteorology etc.

Thanks for that detailed response

Yes, if theres one thing I am fairly sure about its getting a boat that can dry out.

We want to learn the basics, not race.

We enjoyed our Competent Crew course and instructor said we were unusual as a couple that spent the whole week and did not shout at each other once.

Really looking forward to the Day Skipper next April

When I retire we will have 30k to buy a boat, 40k at a push ...... And pensions and rents bringing in about 25 - 35k pa between us. Never less than 12k even if all rents on our homes fail .

If we can cruise on that till I am 67 (6 years) that then hits 40k + pa

First year idea is to circumnavigate the UK doing a little supply teaching to top up income without being dependent on it.

I think that should do it if we dont overextend on too fancy a boat.

Then when she gets her police pension I will be 72 and we move onto a barge ?

Grant

 

[GrantD]

Yes, especially if your other half is concerned about "lean", although I think what you're really talking about is tenderness, as in the tendency to tip in more quickly.

It's hard to know what things go for because no one lists sold for prices except at dumping zones, like Ebay. I've known good boats, properly maintained ones not like those on Ebay, go for half brokers' price (It's a terrible truth but the market's also a grave robbers one ... as in you'll also find many "estate sales" where relatives just want shot of the liabilities of a deceased's boat). You do also find genuinely good people who want to pass on a good boat quickly because they're wise to trap of holding on for the sake of a better price.

That's why I say get out and meet people.

I would not go for the cheapest one though, I'd go for the best maintained that I could afford. Look at the list of replaced and serviced items and work back from the value of replacing them, eg sails, rigging, engine etc. A smaller boat in a better state of repair would be my advice. Everything costs less by the foot. Generally avoid ones that have been used as non-sailing liveaboards.

It sounds like you keep looking till you find something thats really convincing, an "opportunity" will eventually pop up

Grant.

 

[ProDave]

I wonder if this year the market is any different. Around here a lot of boats stuck on the hard going nowhere this year, but presumably still paying fees. I wonder how many will take this as the cue to sell them?

Speaking personally in the last 2 years I sold 2 small boats and both sold quickly and for not a lot more than they had been bought for a few years previously. Both were only advertised on gumtree and sold to local people. They were priced so low you would not want to mess around with traditional brokers.

 

[GrantD]

I wonder if this year the market is any different. Around here a lot of boats stuck on the hard going nowhere this year, but presumably still paying fees. I wonder how many will take this as the cue to sell them?

Speaking personally in the last 2 years I sold 2 small boats and both sold quickly and for not a lot more than they had been bought for a few years previously. Both were only advertised on gumtree and sold to local people. They were priced so low you would not want to mess around with traditional brokers.

Did you mean not a lot less? ?

Grant.

 

[GrantD]

The one piece of hard data I got was from a broker who said prices are averaging 90% of asking.

But thats an average
From one Solent broker
And for the kind of boats a broker sells