Buying a motor boat abroad

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Wild Weasel

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Hi everyone,

Hope you had a great boating season. I have some very basic questions about buying a motor boat abroad. I live in NL and want to boat in the Mediterranean, Turkey specifically. I have narrowed my search down to a specific make/model and found an option on the Internet. The boat is in a marina in Istanbul.

I'm a complete noob when it comes to buying a used boat. I own a small craft in NL, but bought it new through a dealership. What are the steps I need to take in order to get the boat surveyed and eventually make an offer if all is well? I'm thinking off:

  1. Contact the owner, ask if the boat is still available and if there are any "gotchas"
  2. Find a local surveyor and have them inspect the boat
  3. If all okay, fly over and inspect the boat myself
  4. Sea trial?
  5. Make an offer
  6. Finish the paperwork
  7. Sail the boat the new destination

Would I normally pay the gas when taking the boat out for a sea trial?

Thanks in advance for any help.

WW
 
Wild Weasel, the order of those points should be changed. You should inspect the boat yourself first before you get a surveyor to inspect it. There's no point in spending money on a surveyor and then after you inspect the boat, you find out you don't like it anyway. Also, I would not instruct a local surveyor unless you 100% trust him because there is always the chance that he knows the seller or selling broker and maybe isn't impartial. I would fly a surveyor out from NL and yes I know thats an extra expense.
In actual fact you will have to make an offer before the seatrial and also usually before the survey because thats the custom in the industry and once your offer is accepted, you will have to put down a deposit at this stage (usually 10%). You make an offer subject to survey and seatrial which, in theory, allows you to ask for a return of your deposit if the survey or seatrial turns up any major faults which the seller refuses to fix. If after the survey and seatrial you decide to complete the purchase, at this stage I strongly advise that you ask to see copies of all the paperwork you are expecting to receive on completion and that may include originals of the HIN/CE certificate, invoice showing VAT paid and bills of sale itemising all ownership changes or at least 5yrs worth.
IMHO the next bit is very important. On the day you pay the balance of money for the boat, I suggest that you are present at the boatyard and you do not authorise the transfer until you see that all the paperwork you are expecting is present. Then as soon as you make payment and the money arrives in the broker's or seller's account, take the boat away to another marina or much better, another country. Never forget that you are entering into a commercial arrangement with people you don't know in a foreign country and if it goes wrong you are chasing these people through the courts of that country and that is a complete nightmare so do everything to minimise the risk of the transaction
 
I agree all that mike, except I would insist on seeing the paperwork before signing the contract and paying the 10%. Once you've paid that they have a moderate grip on your bolx. Iif the paperwork later turns out to be poor but they assert it is ok ( there are shades of grey here...) you are not in a good position
 
jfm said:
I agree all that mike, except I would insist on seeing the paperwork before signing the contract and paying the 10%. Once you've paid that they have a moderate grip on your bolx. Iif the paperwork later turns out to be poor but they assert it is ok ( there are shades of grey here...) you are not in a good position
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Yup that would be ideal but the reality is that most sellers will just say that they'll provide the original paperwork on completion. The best that the broker will do prior to contract is email whatever copies of that paperwork he receives from the seller and whatever they say, you have no way of knowing whether the docs they are emailing are scans of copies or scans of originals. I've fallen foul of that myself once
 
Deleted User said:
Yup that would be ideal but the reality is that most sellers will just say that they'll provide the original paperwork on completion. The best that the broker will do prior to contract is email whatever copies of that paperwork he receives from the seller and whatever they say, you have no way of knowing whether the docs they are emailing are scans of copies or scans of originals. I've fallen foul of that myself once
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Each to their own of course but I wouldn't do that. When I last bought a used boat (when I took a PX against my last boat, last year), they tried the same and I refused the deal till I saw scans (for starters) of the docs. Of course they were defective. I made them fix that before we did the deal, otherwise I would have dscovered the defects on handover, which is a lousy position to be in.

Every time I've sold a boat I've shown the broker the originals and left him with copies, to reassure buyers. Someone who resists often has a reason for resisting.

Also you gotta remember that the legal protection that a buyer has in a UK contract with regard to the deposit, whereby broker holds that money as stakeholder, does not exist in most other countries as their legal systems do not recognise the trust that underpins the stakeholder's legal position
 
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jfm said:
Each to their own of course but I wouldn't do that. When I last bought a used boat (when I took a PX against my last boat, last year), they tried the same and I refused the deal till I saw scans (for starters) of the docs. Of course they were defective. I made them fix that before we did the deal, otherwise I would have dscovered the defects on handover, which is a lousy position to be in.

Every time I've sold a boat I've shown the broker the originals and left him with copies, to reassure buyers. Someone who resists often has a reason for resisting.

Also you gotta remember that the legal protection that a buyer has in a UK contract with regard to the deposit, whereby broker holds that money as stakeholder, does not exist in most other countries as their legal systems do not recognise the trust that underpins the stakeholder's legal position
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Yes you're right and in today's market in which the buyer holds most of the cards, it should be possible to insist on having sight of documents prior to contract. However the reality, certainly in the Med market, is that boat, broker, buyer and seller are often in very different geographical locations so getting the seller to provide the documents for a buyer to physically inspect at a location convenient to all is potentially difficult which is why the broker will try to get away with only providing scans of course. But yes having had my fingers burnt once, its certainly something I would be insisting on myself now, however difficult it might be
 
Deleted User said:
Yes you're right and in today's market in which the buyer holds most of the cards, it should be possible to insist on having sight of documents prior to contract. However the reality, certainly in the Med market, is that boat, broker, buyer and seller are often in very different geographical locations so getting the seller to provide the documents for a buyer to physically inspect at a location convenient to all is potentially difficult which is why the broker will try to get away with only providing scans of course. But yes having had my fingers burnt once, its certainly something I would be insisting on myself now, however difficult it might be
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As far as I am concerned, nothing beats going to see the boat to personally check on it and it's paperwork. A lot of the time the owner is there and even if he isn't the docs can be. Several of the boats I have looked at, the broker or owner have thrust the paperwork into my hands, eager for me to go through it (those are obviously the ones with nothing to hide), but you can also ask for it when you are there, take photos (or use cam scanner on a smart phone to make pdfs on the spot).
 
I would advise you that :
- contact the owner if the boat is still available, if yes inform the owner that you are coming,
- see the boat alone inside and out, if its OK for you, request one day from the owner and inform him/her that you 'll come back with your surveyor for a through check and sea trial,
- go to another marina, find the marina manager, explain the status and request him to direct you a dependable surveyor,( Engish speaking and registered licence holder)
- inform the surveyor that you 'll need and agent after the survey to check the boat papers and if eveything is okeyed by you, the surveyor and the agent,
- now you can sign The Bill of Sale Certificate also signed by the surveyor and the agent as witness and pay the deposit, the balance of the payment 'll be done the ownership transfer formalities and all transactions with the Harbour Master's Office is completed.
As a retired yachting company owner, I think this will be the safest and shortest way for you.

Good Luck.
 
Good advice so far in general terms, but buying in Turkey brings additional potential problems. The boat will almost certainly be owned by a non Turk who may also be resident elsewhere. So you need to be clear about where the transaction takes place and which jurisdiction. Turkey is outside the EU so you need to be very careful about potential VAT liabilities. If you want to bring it back into the EU you may have to pay VAT. Many boats there have never had VAT paid on them, even though owned by EU residents. If it has had VAT paid in the past it could still have a VAT liability if you import it, but the current owner may be able to bring it into the EU, say into Greece and sell it to you there without any additional VAT. If you intend keeping it outside the EU, none of this may be relevant for you.

As others have suggested you need to see all the paperwork and establish the status of the boat and owner before making any offer.
 
Thank you everyone for your replies so far. This is very valuable information for a novice like me and much appreciated. It is correct that most boats in Turkey are registered in either Wilmington/Delaware (it is very much promoted by the brokers for both Turks and non-Turks). I do intend to keep the boat in south west Turkey. Although I live and work in NL, I also have the Turkish nationality. Probably does not make a difference.

Any more advice also specific to Turkey is welcomed. For example, what papers should I ask for if I would check the boat and papers myself first? Original invoice, evidence of tax being paid, maintenance/repairs etc?

I will post my own updates in this thread too.

WW
 
I wanted to follow up on this thread as the day is coming closer that I will start contacting sellers and prepare visits. What questions would you ask when contacting by telephone and what further questions would you ask when visiting the boat?

Questions over telephone I could think of:

- Boat still for sale?
- Any price change?
- Is the owner local and will they be present when I visit?
- First owner/how many owners?
- VAT/registration situation?
- Boat owned outright, leased or financed?
- All documentation available (Original invoice, evidence of tax being paid, maintenance/repairs)?
-- Certificate of Conformity (to confirm that the Boat meets current regulations)?
-- Builders Certificate?
-- Bill of Sale showing VAT paid of course or alternative document showing how VAT was paid?
- What marina is the boat in?
- Is the boat in the water or on the dry?
- Are the batteries fully charged to check onboard systems?
- Where has maintenance taken place and has it been out of water regularly for either winter or maintenance?
- Anything I should know about the boat before visiting?
- Did the owners allow smoking inside?
- Engine hours (confirm by e-mail)?
- Specifications/options (confirm by e-mail)?
- Agree a visit date/time.

Questions when visiting:

- Go over the first set of questions again, including seeing all papers?
- Any others?

As a recap of my posts above, the boat I'm looking for is 45-50 ft sports cruiser, 6-8 years old. Looking to buy and keep in Turkey.

Many thanks again,
WW
 
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Wild Weasel, just a couple of comments. It is highly unlikely that an owner will be present when you view as many Med boat owners don't live anywhere near their boats. In fact I don't like viewing boats with owners on board as it is then a bit awkward to start poking around looking for faults and some owners are good at distracting you from finding them. One of my first questions is always how many owners. To me, a large number of owners indicates a boat that may have inherent faults or not have been looked after. For a 6-8yr old boat, a large number of owners would be more than 3. Another question would be whether the boat is owned outright, leased or financed. Obviously if there is finance or leasing outstanding, then you or the previous owner will have to settle it. A further question is where the boat is located and what its recent maintenance history has been. A boat that is kept in an expensive marina and has been regularly lifted is more likely to have had an owner who could afford to look after her compared to one kept in a scruffy marina and which hasn't been lifted for 3 seasons.
You will be unlikely to be shown documentation during your first visit but you should make it 100% clear that you wouldn't consider buying the boat before you had sight of the documentation
 
I may have missed this one in the correspondence but I believe Certificate of Conformity would also be required to confirm that the Boat meets current regulations. Also Builders Certificate. Original Bill of Sale showing VAT paid of course or alternative document showing how VAT was Paid. I have just come back from the Netherlands where the Broker handling the sale of a 10 metre Boat advised me that He 'was sure that the owner paid the Vat when he cleared his loan'. Unfortunately, he had no evidence of this so no sale.
 
petie said:
I may have missed this one in the correspondence but I believe Certificate of Conformity would also be required to confirm that the Boat meets current regulations. Also Builders Certificate. Original Bill of Sale showing VAT paid of course or alternative document showing how VAT was Paid. I have just come back from the Netherlands where the Broker handling the sale of a 10 metre Boat advised me that He 'was sure that the owner paid the Vat when he cleared his loan'. Unfortunately, he had no evidence of this so no sale.
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VAT paid when you clear the loan, as distinct from when you buy the boat, shouts "DUTCH LEASING SCHEME". You were right imho to avoid with bargepole - many of these were terribly badly designed and do not produce a degree of VAT-paidness acceptable in any country other than NL. UK's HMRC has issued notices broadly saying these schemes sort of don't work, and HMRC are correct about this imho
 
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