Buying a boat with dubious service history

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EmptyPontoon

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Hi all.

Sorry to ask what may be seen as a bit of a numpty question, but I am trying to fill my pontoon and really having trouble finding a relatively decent boat. I am not spending mega bucks, so the boat will be fairly old - currently obsessing over a 2000 model.

It has a 600 hour VP 5.0 gi engine attached to a duoprop leg, raw water cooled. Will ask about when manifolds and risers / elbows were last done. It has had new leg trim rams and s/s props in the last 2 years and looks like it has been looked after to my unprofessional eye. Asking price is reasonable as an “asking price”.

BUT... the recent servicing has been done by “a family member who looks after superyachts” and there are no receipts. Boat seems in fairly good condition for the year, a couple of bumps but nothing major compared to much newer boats I have viewed lately... and lots of new stuff, including new factory covers. It has been dry sailed for the last 3-4 years, current owner has had it about 2-3 years according to the broker.

So, what to do? I am worried about reliability problems (single petrol) and the implications of missing service records when it is my time to sell. Could a good Volvo Penta technician do a pre-purchase engine / leg survey to give me a decent level of peace of mind (and maybe any future buyer as at this moment in time with my continuing service commitment) or are we talking about a seriously lower offer against the asking price / walking away.

I will also be looking for a surveyor as well as the VP engine technician for an inspection and sea trial soon around the Hamble area if anyone could make a recommendation.

Gonna take the missus for a look tomorrow. It had better not look too shiny :)

Thanks for reading.
 
If you are unsure then walk away.

Or, you could get a decent survey done and place at least some of the burden on the surveyors liability insurance if the sale goes ahead and you have problems.

Basically, your choice.
 
Unlikely that you are going to be able to get money from the surveyor later on, best you’re going to get is a list of things to look at / fix / use to negotiate the price down.

An old boat will come with problems, if you are not able to fix at least some of them yourself walk away.
I would not rely on how shiny it looks or what your wife thinks about it (unless she is a mechanic)

Main thing that would stop me is the ‘raw water cooling’
This will rot the engine from the inside out, our local yard does good business fixing just that kind of engine. Even if you rinse it out with a hose afterwards you dont know what has happened over the last 20 yrs. fixing major engine parts is going to be the most expensive part of owning a mobo.
 
I am probably going to be out of step with the rest of the band.

Apart from. I would regard a 2000 boat as "practically brand new".
My boat is much older. Still expensive enough a survey was in order. Also a mechanical inspection and oil test.
See what they say.
Personally. I would prefer to test old oil. If the engine has just been serviced and fluids have just been changed testing won't show any problems.

It's an older boat. Just because its owner maintained. Doesn't mean it has not been maintained. Warranty ended a long time ago.
The owner has a mechanic or engineer. or a chap who works on a superyacht in the family who does his own service.
Probably not an uncommon story for a boat of this sort of age.
Just my opinion. As boats or cars get older. The chaps who own them tend to be DIY types. My wife will google how to change or fix a thingme bob on her car. Its an older Toyota. She then tells me how to fix it.

Sometimes in the classic car market enthusiastically maintained by owner.
Translates to systematically wrecked by owner.
Sometimes it means the owner looked after it very well.

I might be a bit wary of a raw water engine. Depends where its been used.
Personally, I would avoid turbos and old legs as potentially expensive. Which may also be out of step. again get the oil tested.
 
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OMG :) IMHO.

Some home truths.
A 18 year old petrol boat with raw water cooling and outdrives.
Just about the most unholy mix of expensive grief you could drag together one place.:)
If you go and look at the boat with the basic assumption that all boat sellers are fibbers and might possibly be a little economical with the truth, you will not go far wrong. :).
You could have a 100 surveyors look at that boat and somebody is going to miss something.
If you like the boat,quite possibly nothing on earth could stop you buying it.
Have you done any research about just how much boat will cost to run and where you are going to get your fuel from.
Bear in mind that petrol is £6.00 a gallon (lots more in marinas)and boat will use 10 gallons an hour ? = £60.00 three hour trip £180.00.

Would suggest that you tot up the amount to fix major expense items and deduct from price.
If offer accepted, you will be able to trouser cash or at worst have the money in hand to repair boat.
Feel sure you will have lots of fun whatever the outcome.

Ps. Pop "outdrive problem" into any boaty search engine and sit back an await the deluge. :)
 
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Where’s the paper trail ?
Not so concerned re the DIY vs official agent argument in an older boat .
Need to see invoices for oil, filters , other parts in chronological order as well as in this case the last raw water cooled riser/ manifold invoice and sterndrive bellows and leg oil bill .Nice to see paperwork for leg oil seals , they don,t last for ever .

Never mind the shiny SS props .Folks put those on to go faster after a perceived lack of performance, or after a ding .
May mask an underlying engine - low Hp issue ?
 
Thanks for the replies so far folks. Useful stuff.

I should have mentioned, I have owned boats before - outboard and I/O but never this old. Therefore, I am well aware of the fueling costs and potential issues associated with running a petrol engine / leg and annual budgets are in place. I am also aware of costs of servicing turbo diesels and the purchase price differential between petrol and diesel boats.

It is not too easy to find a closed cooling system diesel in my budget for a planing, pocket sports-cruiser. So I wind up with a list of old RWC petrol v8s to choose from. History, surveyors / engineers and monitoring temperatures etc on a proper sea trial are about all I have to go forward to check out basic, important things like the lubrication and cooling systems has been properly maintained. The alternative of pro-actively breaking out another thousand on cast iron parts (probably more on Volvo), and sore arms from the weight of changing them is not so bad as a hydro lock. But if I combine that with an engine rebuild, leg exploding etc, it is not the kind of money I want to get into on a 25k boat.

Given all that, I am trying to view on condition rather than anything else, using the metaphor if the boat looks neglected, it probably isn’t worth getting professionals involved in pre-purchase inspections. Now I wouldn’t say this one looks like it has had the most skilled helmsman over its entire life, but the overall condition is about the best I have seen to date, and most of the others have been half the age of this one.

The bit I can’t understand is the family professional engineer not advising to keep the parts receipts on servicing - he ought to know. I have owned older cars which I have serviced myself, and when I do that I keep the filter receipts etc as proof it happened. I share the view expressed, if somebody cant show at least parts receipts in the car world, servicing probably didn’t happen.
 
oldgit said:
Pop "outdrive problem" into any boaty search engine and sit back an await the deluge. :)
Click to expand...

I think we all know you are obsessively opposed to sterndrives.
If they are serviced they are okay and if people want a modest sized sportscruiser on a sensible budget there is not really much alternative.
 
EmptyPontoon said:
I will also be looking for a surveyor as well as the VP engine technician for an inspection and sea trial soon around the Hamble area if anyone could make a recommendation.

Thanks for reading.
Click to expand...

If you are happy with the general condition of the boat do not be deterred .Do have it checked out before buying and dont be put off if faults are found - you simply re-negotiate the price to reflect significant faults found at survey or sea trial.
 
MartynG said:
I think we all know you are obsessively opposed to sterndrives.
If they are serviced they are okay and if people want a modest sized sportscruiser on a sensible budget there is not really much alternative.
Click to expand...

It’s fine, I was aware of oldgit’s preferences and it doesn’t upset me. It is an opinion just like yours or mine, and I appreciate the time taken to post the response. :) Whilst I don’t post a lot, I read a lot on here.

Personally, when looking at a planing hull single, I would like to point the props where they need to be pointed to achieve the best possible power delivery and (giggle) fuel economy, before we go into the nightmare of close quarter low speed handling of a single shaft propelled high windage boat :)

Each to their own. But both you and oldgit are right, outdrives *can* be a very expensive TCO proposition, typically if not properly maintained. Just like shafts will not deliver all possible power and use more fuel, and diesels get the bug... and.. and...

I am in a bit of a quandary on this. Logic says walk away, but the rest of condition says get it surveyed and bought at a negotiated price if tests come up strong. But then, in about 2 years I will be on the other end of the problem - potentially be selling it with a dodgy service history. I could always double or treble my budget and get something newer and lose the same money on depreciation. Head all the time, heart does not come into it (until the missus sees shiny things of course) :)

One specific question. Can anyone tell me if a VP duo prop suffers the same well documented corrosion issues as a Mercruiser / B3 on stainless props - I notice most VPs don’t have them? This will be sat in the salty stuff at the bottom of the garden from now on rather than in a dry rack, hence the concern.
 
I'm also going to be out of step. Having all the receipts and history is no guarantee of anything and as useful as knowing, yeah it was done. I would inspect the engine as it now stands and see how it runs. A compression check, end play etc and general state and running condition will tell you much more than a paper trail. And also to be quite blunt, the worst case scenario of an engine rebuild on a petrol engine is relatively inexpensive by comparison to it's counterparts. So much so that in my instance on a previous smaller cuddy (20 ft) I elected to simply replace a sterndrive unit rather than pay for labour and a couple upper gearbox parts and very nearly an engine when the starter motor bolts sheered off in the block as the labour and time quotient was going to be very similar in price. Noted it was an Alpha 1 and Merc 3.0GL motor but otherwise not a helluva lot more in it. This was in an old boat too. Basically what I am alluding too is for instance in my twin diesel engine boat also in that price bracket. Were the diesels to go my best investment would be a chainsaw i.e. the value of the boat is entirely in the engines. In a petrol boat I'd just replace the engines, so the value of the boat is in the hull. So AFAIC I would look at the boat, and simply factor in potential engine repair costs based on an on the spot appraisal. I dare say I will be shot down in flames but, that's just my opinion.
 
Portofino said:
Would anything from The MasterCraft range —- shaft —— scratch the itch to wake up and see a boat perched on your pontoon?
Click to expand...

They look nice boats, but really looking for something with weekending potential. I have been keeping an eye on the Yachtmarket for about 18 months now to get a shortlist together before viewing any. Started viewings over the last week

So, it kind of shuts me down to a small Sealine (s23/5) from UK and the myriad US and Canadian options. Liking the quality of Crownlines and Dorals currently. Sadly the Bayliners seem to be in very poor condition - nothing like the one I sold 10 years ago. Older Sealines tend to have the really nasty dark burr and flowery or badly refurbed interiors at the budget which I just couldn’t live with, but I appreciate may well be better hull designs for our waters.

Off to take the missus there’s now... leaving bank cards at home ;)
 
EmptyPontoon said:
They look nice boats, but really looking for something with weekending potential. I have been keeping an eye on the Yachtmarket for about 18 months now to get a shortlist together before viewing any. Started viewings over the last week

So, it kind of shuts me down to a small Sealine (s23/5) from UK and the myriad US and Canadian options. Liking the quality of Crownlines and Dorals currently. Sadly the Bayliners seem to be in very poor condition - nothing like the one I sold 10 years ago. Older Sealines tend to have the really nasty dark burr and flowery or badly refurbed interiors at the budget which I just couldn’t live with, but I appreciate may well be better hull designs for our waters.

Off to take the missus there’s now... leaving bank cards at home ;)
Click to expand...

You could always wrap the woodwork on one of those earlier Sealines using something like this http://www.yachtid.eu/en/? coupled with some new fabrics would absolutely transform the boat and be cheap to do.
 
Well, a quick look with the missus and a lunch at Swanwick chewing the fat (literally in the case of my bacon) :).

If it had any sort of history with it, I would have made an offer close to the asking price and put a deposit on it today. It isn’t perfect, but what 18 year old boat is. What it seems is a very well built boat, originally well finished and has been generally looked after, a few gelcoat scratches, couple of small crazing style dings etc, but all in all a good, honest basis for a very nice boat after I have gone over it thoroughly with a lot of products.

Going to wash and polish a couple of cars and have a good long think. The missus likes it. My current thought is that I’d love to engage VolvoPaul to look the mechanicals over and analyse oils (engine oil is not recently changed - assume leg the same) pre purchase and when it is clear that the purchase will complete, ask him to pick up on the engine and leg servicing if he would be interested in the business - not sure what his area is.

I am fairly new on here and don’t want to act out of line - I was kinda hoping he would notice the thread. Would it be too cheeky to PM him to ask about his services?
 
In my limited experience boats with a full history are the exception.

Not sure why. My current one happens to have all bills from new- but as far as I know this is pretty rare.

Take it on condition. Get a decent engineer to take a look at it and give you a view. Do bear in mind there is only so much they can tell you - but the same is true for something with lots of bills.
 
EmptyPontoon said:
Well, a quick look with the missus and a lunch at Swanwick chewing the fat (literally in the case of my bacon) :).

If it had any sort of history with it, I would have made an offer close to the asking price and put a deposit on it today. It isn’t perfect, but what 18 year old boat is. What it seems is a very well built boat, originally well finished and has been generally looked after, a few gelcoat scratches, couple of small crazing style dings etc, but all in all a good, honest basis for a very nice boat after I have gone over it thoroughly with a lot of products.

Going to wash and polish a couple of cars and have a good long think. The missus likes it. My current thought is that I’d love to engage VolvoPaul to look the mechanicals over and analyse oils (engine oil is not recently changed - assume leg the same) pre purchase and when it is clear that the purchase will complete, ask him to pick up on the engine and leg servicing if he would be interested in the business - not sure what his area is.

I am fairly new on here and don’t want to act out of line - I was kinda hoping he would notice the thread. Would it be too cheeky to PM him to ask about his services?
Click to expand...

Well there you go. If you like it. Make an offer subject to test and inspection.
Best advice is to walk away from any boat, where would the fun be in that:)

For the future, if you look after it and keep a service record up to date, It should be noticeable to a prospective byer.
 
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Thanks for all the input folks. It is good to get a consensus from those who have also owned boats. I was concerned that I could not overcome the lack of history over the next couple of years before we move from the UK.

My previous boats have all been about 18 months old on acquisition, and I have had them meticulously serviced and kept records. This is probably why I don’t understand older boats not having records. As mentioned, the missus preferred it to the other one we looked at on Wednesday, even though it is older it seems more looked after. The layout and quality is far higher than the American boat too.

So, the thinking at the moment is to see if Paul can work with a surveyor of his choice and get it checked out professionally after we put an offer in. The offer will be subject to a sea trial and survey of course. Still a bit of talking to be done with the admiral as every time I have got a budget together for a boat, something has cropped up to halve it - this March it was her birthday Mercedes sports car, so I lost a few 10s of thousands off the budget so the Fairline Targa was struck off the list :). Maybe when we get to our warmer retirement country in a couple of years.

Anyway, a little more discussion with the admiral on temporarily depleting the pension pot and we should be there.

Thanks again for all the input. If all goes well, once we have it home and I have worked some detailing magic on it to get it up to my standards, I will post a pic or two to let you see why I was in such a quandary.

Have a good rest of the weekend and keep safe on the water.
 
simonfraser said:
Unlikely that you are going to be able to get money from the surveyor later on, best you’re going to get is a list of things to look at / fix / use to negotiate the price down.

Main thing that would stop me is the ‘raw water cooling’
Click to expand...
I bought a 15 year old boat which has "raw water cooling" and I had a problem.
The rubber outlet hose in the boat was the original one. (being 15 years old)
Where the hose connected to the exhaust skin fitting the rubber had perished, TH rubber hose had a metal coil within for strength and a coil strand had rusted away, snapped and the broken part of the coil had sprung up through the rubber and the hose leaked.
The problem was that where the broken hose was located you could not see it as the fuel tank was in front of it, you could not reach it as the tank was in the way, to get the tank out I had to cut the transom with a jig saw to remove a section where I was able to lift the tank out and climb in to undo the jubilee clips and replace the hose.
(I only found the leak when I put the boat in the water for the first time, presumably previously the Bilge pump would have dealt with it)
Certainly if I was now buying a year 2000 boat now I would be more aware that hoses (like car cam belts) should be replaced.
 
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