Buying a boat (natante, <10 mt - no registration needed) in Italy

[psousa]

Hi!

After my previous business has failed (engine collectors/risers/elbows revealed water leakages after engine dewinterized and tested), I'm about to buy a Monterey 250 CR in Italy. I've already saw her (out of the water) in Venice zone and have price discussed with the owner.
If we both decide to conclude this business, I will be in Venice again to have a sea trial, check the papers, pay (one shot -> same day wire transfer) and sign the papers (a Bill of Sale) as soon as the money is available in the seller account. After possession, a uShip transport service will pick up the boat and bring it to my country (Portugal).

After reading some posts here and have some questions replied (pm) by users Zen Zero and marcot, which I appreciate and thank, I decided to ask for more opinions.

The facts:
1. being a natante (<10mt), she don't need to be registered (as far as I know)
2. if not registered, I don't know if the seller is the rightful owner of the boat
3. if not registered, there is no nulla osta, therefore I don't know if there is any lien or other 3rd party interests on this asset
4. if not registered, there is no such document like 'cancelation of registration', needed by my local authorities to register this boat
Are all these facts true?

Both Zen Zero and marcot told me to ask for the well known CE declaration (which is also needed for my local authorities) and certification for engine power (don't know how it looks like...).
And regarding VAT? How do I know it's paid? Probably I need to ask for original Bill of Sale, am I right?

I'm becoming less and less confident on this business as the boat, by being not registered, seems to be on a kind of limbo to me (in my knowledge it's hard to understand how can we own and transact an asset without any legal proof of possession).

Which are your opinions?
Which documents should I ask for or not? Can you post examples of these documents?
Is the "paper check -> full payment (wire transfer) -> sign papers -> pick up boat" in the right sequence?

Thank you

 

[MapisM]

Following your Qs:

1. correct. But to put that in perspective, you should think that the same is true for any UK flagged vessel up to 24m, as far as I know.
Not to mention that the 24m is calculated in LLL as opposed to LOA, therefore you could actually find a 28m or so UK flagged boat completely unregistered - and helmed by someone with "zeru tituli", if you see what I mean...!

2. as for any other unregistered goods, possession implies ownership - until proven otherwise.
How can anyone know I'm the rightful owner of my bicycle? Because it's in my possession, and if you pretend it's yours, so is the burden of the proof.
Again, I would think that the same goes for any unregistered vessels, be them IT or UK (or whatever) flagged.
That said, of course I would ask the current owner to provide also some evidence of how he/she bought the thing - whether it's the original invoice of the builder, or the sale agreement with the previous owner - and the more complete and clear such history, the better, obviously.
But in theory, it's legitimate to buy an unregistered vessel from whoever is in possession of it, without any other paper evidence. Granted, you risk to be prosecuted as a receiver of stolen goods if you would buy the boat in cash, based on hand shaking, and with some cocaine included in the deal, but you see what I mean...
And as far as being "VAT-paid" is concerned (to address another of your Qs), as long as you can prove to have purchased a second hand vessel within EU, and from an EU private individual, such transaction is beyond VAT applicability, because the underlying implication is that the VAT must have been already paid in the past, at some stage.
In other words, it's not your problem. You could pretend it is, if the seller can't give you any evidence, and ask for some further discount, but that's another matter altogether.

3. it's extremely unrealistic that a bank financed an unregistered boat, because it would be a sort of contradiction in terms: being unregistered, the boat just can't be a reliable security.
And even if someone would have been silly enough to lend some money to the owner, based on some private agreement between them, where the owner offered the boat as a guarantee, this "someone" should prove your awareness/collusion, before pretending anything from you related to the previous obligation.

4. Isn't a written sale agreement enough? I can't see how Portugal authorities can pretend to have something that simply can't exist.
When you buy a new boat which has never been registered before, do they still pretend to have a cancellation of registration...?!?

Re. the "Dichiarazione di Potenza" (or "certification for engine power", as you called it), that's a statement issued from the engine builder, reporting the serial number/s of the engine/s and its/their specs.
It's mandatory in IT for the "natanti" (unregistered boats), because without it there wouldn't be any official proof of the engine power, which is relevant for two main reasons: firstly, if the boat power is above 40hp, a license is mandatory to helm the boat, and secondly, the third party insurance (also mandatory) takes also that into account, among other factors.
It doesn't actually prove the boat ownership, but since it's supposed to be handed over upon sale, you can expect the seller to have it (and to give it to you in original upon sale, together with the DoC, i.e. the CE Declaration of Conformity).
Since you said that you don't know how it looks like, I can send you one of them as an example, if you wish - just pm me your mailbox.
Actually it isn't fully standardized, and it can be slightly different depending on the engine manufacturer and the vintage.
But I have several of those scanned in my files, so if you can tell me the engine/year you're looking at, I can see which is the closer one that I can send you.

Just one last comment, since you said that the boat is in Venice area: I've been based around there for a decade, and fwiw I can confirm you that most folks are reliable and straightforward - much more so than in some parts of southern Italy, I must say.
That would probably be one of my first choices, if I were looking for a used boat and I could pick the place where to find my ideal boat.
Logistic considerations aside, of course - it's a long way to Portugal...!

In any case, all the best. :encouragement:

 

[psousa]

Wow! It's a hell of an answer!
Thank you very much, MapisM!

Regarding registration, you're probably right. I'm used to another reality, that's it!

I think authorities told me everything I should have (in the most complete scenario) since I told them I will be picking up a boat abroad. Their answer is probably to avoid missing something I can't get when I'm back to Portugal again and, therefore, 3000 km away from the sale point! I think that was the idea and I don't blame them. They will not ask for a document that, legally, does not exist, I'm sure!
I believe CE certificate and Dichiarazione di Potenza are the most important documents because:
1. portuguese authorities need to inspect and certify this boat for security purposes based on her dimensions and specs
2. we pay taxes based on engine power (kw) - since 2007 only engines below 20kw are exempt of taxes here in Portugal :S We have to pay a bailout!

The owner seems a serious guy to me but we never know!
In fact I'm purchasing this boat in Italy because this model it's hard to find here in Portugal, not because the price. Portugal has a tiny boat market when compared with Italy!

 

[MapisM]

I believe CE certificate and Dichiarazione di Potenza are the most important documents

The current owner should have both, and they should be given to you in original upon sale.

But just FYI, I imported a boat <10m in Italy from the UK, where the power certification is not required - probably doesn't exist at all, I'm not sure.
And even if I was not going to register the boat in IT (as it wasn't in the UK), I still needed that piece of paper, in order to comply with the IT regulation for "natanti".
I wrote to the Mercury IT distributor, specifying the engine model and s/n, and also explaining the reason why I didn't have such certificate - in my case, because the boat was bought abroad. And they shortly sent me the document, stamped and signed.

 

[psousa]

The owner told me, few minutes ago, he have no invoice! So, there is no ownership evidence. Have to think about this...