PlanB
Well-Known Member
Going off on a tangent, make sure that your insurance covers your friend using the boat if you are not there.
Buying a boat, keeping it in France
- Thread starter FinesseChris
- Start date
Daedelus
Well-Known Member
Have a look at RYA website, I have a nasty feeling that post Brexit any British boat kept in the EU for more than 6 months will render itself liable to VAT.
Don't rely on me but check the site for yourself as I could be wrong.
Don't rely on me but check the site for yourself as I could be wrong.
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Assuming Brexit will happen, then the boat needs to be on an EU State flag or you will be liable for VAT on import.
RichardS
N/A
Bobc
Well-Known Member
Surely it's about where VAT was paid rather than what flag the boat carries?
FinesseChris
Well-Known Member
Who is this "friend"?
Are they still alive?
Richard
Well they were when I started this, 10 years back.
Lost touch since.....
C
Graham376
Well-Known Member
Yes, as things stand at the moment. The OP is thinking about buying a boat (presumably after B day) and basing it in the EU. If he were to buy in a country outside the EU, such as UK, then VAT would be payable. We don't yet know exactly what will happen, what deals may or may not be made but hopefully a UK boat based in the EU will retain its EU status even after sale. What I should have said was either on EU State flag or, be already VAT paid within the EU.
pvb
Well-Known Member
Graham376
Well-Known Member
The OP was asking the question more than 10 years ago.....
Yes, I mean the guy who has just asked a question in #20
pvb
Well-Known Member
Yes, I mean the guy who has just asked a question in #20
Oh, I'm sorry. I foolishly thought that when you wrote "The OP", you meant the OP. My mistake.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
dunedin
Well-Known Member
No problems in 2020 but it could be your presence rather than the boat that has the challenge with this plan from 2021 onwards - due to the 90 day in any 180 Schengen visa rules. May be ways to get round this for a longer stay in any single country (eg France), but not sure this will be clear for some time yet. So worth checking this one before committing too far.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
Interesting article by RYA on this very subject - ie U.K. boats in France and whether they need to comply with French rules.
May be members only but if so, one reason for why being a member Visiting France - a Constitutional Conundrum | France | Country Specific Advice (MEMBERS ONLY) | Boating Abroad | Knowledge & Advice | RYA - Royal Yachting Association
In essence the RYA view is that the oft espoused view that U.K. yachts do not need to comply with country specific regulations is debatable in law - and in France, the only way this will be tested will be by somebody being taken to court (which could be painful). The RYA note that the rules on UNCLOS and “innocent passage” probably work for a passing ship, but less likely to apply for a yacht cruising in French waters (and therefore even less likely to be exempt for a boat with a permanent marina berth).
So perhaps the “few gendarmes” might know French and international law better than some boat owners? Probably worth being compliant.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
I have kept 4 boats in France and about to move the boat I have just purchased to Boulogne sur mer.
You can keep your boat in a French marina 365 both pre and post Brexit.. Provided it is British Flagged and registered then you are not required to pay French Boat tax to the Douane. You are not required to maintain boat safety equipment to French standards. BUT
If you personally spend more than 183 days in any 12 moth period you will become a resident and be required to pay boat tax... Post Brexit you will also be liable to pay French VAT--- Also post Brexit you will only be allowed to spend 90 days in EU / French waters... Now its possible this might change with negotiations but is a great worry for folks like me that have a 2nd home in France.
In all the years I have had boats permanently in French marinas and been inspected by French officials the only issue has been the Boat tax and to a much lesser extent VAT. I suspect VAT will become the dominating problem as theoretically any UK boat VAT paid in the UK will be liable under EU law to pay VAT as an importation if you overstay your 180/90 days permitted visiting time
You can keep your boat in a French marina 365 both pre and post Brexit.. Provided it is British Flagged and registered then you are not required to pay French Boat tax to the Douane. You are not required to maintain boat safety equipment to French standards. BUT
If you personally spend more than 183 days in any 12 moth period you will become a resident and be required to pay boat tax... Post Brexit you will also be liable to pay French VAT--- Also post Brexit you will only be allowed to spend 90 days in EU / French waters... Now its possible this might change with negotiations but is a great worry for folks like me that have a 2nd home in France.
In all the years I have had boats permanently in French marinas and been inspected by French officials the only issue has been the Boat tax and to a much lesser extent VAT. I suspect VAT will become the dominating problem as theoretically any UK boat VAT paid in the UK will be liable under EU law to pay VAT as an importation if you overstay your 180/90 days permitted visiting time
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
Currently, all VAT paid boats in the EU28 (includes UK) have the status of Union Goods - which means they are free to circulate in the EU28 countries with no chargeable event and no customs and excise interference. Customs are currently only interested in EU VAT status.
On Brexit day, these Union Goods will be split into two groups. Union and UK goods. Boats in the EU27 will retain the status of Union Goods, and will be free to circulate in the EU27 but not in the UK, those in the UK will become UK goods and will be free to circulate in the UK but not the EU27. This is regardless of flag state or owner nationality.
A UK citizen, post-Brexit, with a boat defined as UK goods will have to use the temporary arrangements (temporary import) rules when visiting the EU27. This means a stay limited to 18 months in the EU27 with a reset possible by officially checking out of an EU27 country and back in again through a designated port of entry - this can happen on the same day. Additionally, a UK citizen will be limited to 90 days in any 180 day period in the EU27. This will cause UK live-abourds in the EU27 a headache.
A UK citizen, post-Brexit, with a boat defined as Union goods will be able to leave their boat in the EU27 indefinately with no further issues other than customs officers perhaps checking EU VAT status. The UK citizen will still however be limited to 90 days in any 180 day period in the EU27.
A UK citizen, post-Brexit can puchase a boat in the EU without paying any VAT and keep it in the EU under temporary import so long as the clock is reset by checking in and out through a port of entry every 18 months. Don't overstay, the consequences could be very nasty.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the very authoritative post..
I am a permanent Spanish resident which only let me reside in Spain not the wider EU... I drive between the two countries and there does not appear to be a border post at the Spanish/French Toll on the frontier. Any idea how I get my passport stamped in and out of Spain/France? I certainly want to spend all summer in my 2nd home in France where my boat is to be based? Passport stamps will be the only way I can supply evidence of time spent in France.. I think?
I
Baggywrinkle
Well-Known Member
My understanding is the following, I assume you are a UK citizen with only a UK passport and a Spanish residency permit.
Post-Brexit, UK citizens will almost certainly be treated like US, Canadian or Australian citizens are currently. That means visa-free travel for 90 out of 180 days with the entry/exit checks done at the Schengen Area external border or point of entry (airport, port).
You have a Spanish residency permit, but not Spanish citizenship - so you are therefore not subject to a 90 days in 180 rule in Spain, you can stay in Spain as long as your residency permit remains valid. I have an American friend in Germany with the same arrangement.
Your Spanish residency permit is equivalent to a Schengen Visa so you may also travel to other Schengen states (France for example) but only for 90 days in any 180-day period. When leaving Spain you must always take your residency permit and UK passport with you. To stay longer in France, you need Spanish citizenship or a french residency permit, or citizenship of any EU country will also suffice. I have aquired German citizenship for exactly this reason - a German residency permit would not be enough to allow me permanent access to my boat in Croatia.
The big question is ... how do they determine how long you have been in France?
Given that there are no border control points in operation, currently I don't know how they police internal travel of non-EU citizens with residency permits. I would imagine that it is not really policed or seen as a problem that needs addressing.
My US friend did get a roasting from a border official in Croatia for not immediately handing over her german residence permit with her US passport at a border crossing - her passport was scanned and stamped if I remeber rightly. In future there will be no more stamps but movement will be recorded electronically.
Two things to be aware of as well ... one is that currently France does appear to be implementing spot checks and both France and Spain have re-introduced border controls temporarily due to the migrant problems. See following link.
Temporary Reintroduction of Border Control - Migration and Home Affairs - European Commission
Basically, once the UK leaves the EU, the most likely outcome, assuming freedom of movement is really revoked as the conservatives red lines require, then the current rules applied to US, Canadian or Australians are likely to apply to UK citizens too. My reason for this assumption is the following ...
https://www.schengenvisainfo.com/news/traveling-to-schengen-area-will-change-in-next-years/
I would be very grateful to hear from any non-EU citizens currently residing in an EU country under a residents permit and what their inter-EU travel experience has been.
Fr J Hackett
Well-Known Member
I have a French residency permit and over the last year have travelled to Spain, Italy, Germany, Holland, the UK and internally within France all by air. I have used my UK passport when travelling outside of France obviously with no problem and have used my Carte de Sejour without problem when travelling inside of France. I am told I can use it for travelling within the EU but have yet to test it hopefully I won't need to if and when my French nationality is confirmed later this year.
I did temporarily lose my UK passport (inadvertently left in an overhead locker when it fell out of my jacket pocket) when travelling back from the UK. The French officials were about to let me in on the evidence of my CdS, French driving licence and Carte Vitale but a stewardess had found my passport and returned it to me. I posted about it on here at the time.
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
Again Baggywrinkle, thanks for the well documented information.
My instinct is to wait and see... and not panic. There are millions of Brits in Spain and indeed France, many of whom use their cars (mine is Spanish plated and 100% Spanish) and the ETIAS scheme will not work at road frontiers (except spot checks) so any of us ex pats can roam the Schengen area at will I suspect.
In France it is possible to get a visa of long duration (more than 90 days) mainly based on ability to support yourself and health care.. I suspect there will be reciprocal health care like the old E111 so thats OK. I intend to investigate that when I get back to France.
The Spanish do not want to dis-enfranchise the millions of property owners in Spain. Not so sure there is the same imperative in France- I am a UK citizen with a UK passport and a Spanish residency permit so staying in Spain is not an issue. Its having the right to more than 90 days (June July August) in my French home and waters with the boat that is.
My solution like your American friend is to take French nationality (My Spanish is not good enough to pass the test) and then all my problems vanish except I will have to pay the French Boat tax of around 200€ PA
I suspect it will all sort itself out except the French now have customs checks at airports for internal flights..
My instinct is to wait and see... and not panic. There are millions of Brits in Spain and indeed France, many of whom use their cars (mine is Spanish plated and 100% Spanish) and the ETIAS scheme will not work at road frontiers (except spot checks) so any of us ex pats can roam the Schengen area at will I suspect.
In France it is possible to get a visa of long duration (more than 90 days) mainly based on ability to support yourself and health care.. I suspect there will be reciprocal health care like the old E111 so thats OK. I intend to investigate that when I get back to France.
The Spanish do not want to dis-enfranchise the millions of property owners in Spain. Not so sure there is the same imperative in France- I am a UK citizen with a UK passport and a Spanish residency permit so staying in Spain is not an issue. Its having the right to more than 90 days (June July August) in my French home and waters with the boat that is.
My solution like your American friend is to take French nationality (My Spanish is not good enough to pass the test) and then all my problems vanish except I will have to pay the French Boat tax of around 200€ PA
I suspect it will all sort itself out except the French now have customs checks at airports for internal flights..
Sea Devil
Well-Known Member
How did your application for French residency go? What was the criteria for the application?
It is my solution if the 90 days issue bites into my time in France but have not yet investigated it too deeply. Would be grateful for your advice.