Buying a boat from Sardinia

[Tranona]

Do you mean that you could register my boat in SSR while she's still in an official IT register, come to my marina, put a red duster on the flag pole, stick an SSR# on the stern, and head to Gibraltar to bring her to the UK?
Sounds scary - not that you would really want to, regardless!

Yes, if you are resident in the UK. Big bone of contention for many UK folk because the SSR system is (or has been) very lax as it relies on self declaration so open to abuse, particularly by people who don't want for all sorts of reasons to use the registry in their own country. However unlike "proper" registers it has no real meaning other than identifying the boat as British. It is not a register of title, that is the Part 1 British registration.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Do you mean that you could register my boat in SSR while she's still in an official IT register, come to my marina, put a red duster on the flag pole, stick an SSR# on the stern, and head to Gibraltar to bring her to the UK?
Sounds scary - not that you would really want to, regardless!

The SSR is great for buying foreign boats. The beauty of it is that you can apply for it online without submitting any documentation before you even buy the boat and you can turn up on the day that you actually complete the purchase with an official looking laminated registration certificate that no forign official will ever question. I have always got a SSR document for the boats I've bought in Europe because it allows you to use the boat straightaway whilst any deregistration takes place and, if you want, you apply for the much more onerous Part 1 registration which can take many weeks to get. I am constantly amazed that foreign officials and marina staff treat the UK SSR certificate with such reverence because in itself it's worthless as a confirmation of ownership. Even EU nationals could register their boat under the SSR if they are resident in the UK (although I doubt that anybody checks any address for residence)

 

[Tranona]

I am constantly amazed that foreign officials and marina staff treat the UK SSR certificate with such reverence because in itself it's worthless as a confirmation of ownership. Even EU nationals could register their boat under the SSR if they are resident in the UK (although I doubt that anybody checks any address for residence)

Its an internationally recognised document showing country of registration. Foreign officials are not (in general) the least bit interested in proof of ownership!. There have been recent reports that the MCA is tightening up on residency, but given the lack of official knowledge about who does and does not live in the UK guess it is a bit hit and miss. The ones who seem to have difficulty are UK citizens who no longer have a permanent address in the UK - perhaps not the main target.

 

[DavidJ]

I've met Australians in the Med who have brought their boats over and to avoid VAT ( or IVA in this case) because of their duration of presence in the EU have got their boats SSR registered. Presumably they just use some address of a friend in the UK. (not me by the way!)

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Its an internationally recognised document showing country of registration. Foreign officials are not (in general) the least bit interested in proof of ownership!.

We were stopped off Sardinia recently by the Guardia Finanzia and they seemed very interested in who owned our boat

 

[jfm]

Hang on a minute! To get an SSR registration the applicant must make a declaration (during the application process) that the boat is not on any other register. OK, the UK officials do not check the truth of the declaration but you are most definitely making a false declaration/lying if you get a SSR for a boat already on IT or any other register. Each person can make their own mind up about that of course, but you should at least take care because the lie is on the record for ever and if you get found out and are, say, a member of a professional body in the UK then the consequences would be chunky

@DavidJ - that's quite funny because the most commonly used VAT exemption for non EU people keeping boats in the EU is the "TI" or Temporary Import scheme, which allows owner to use boat VAT free for 18months max. But the TI exemption relies on the boat being non EU flagged! You lose TI status if you EU flag the boat!

 

[Portofino]

All he needs to sail it back / take out of Italian waters / cruise around ( for short time ) are....

Your BoS and one of these ---- "dichiarazione Di vendors Di imbarcazioni " will be signed by the seller and a photocopy on the back page of an official stamp by the authorities and there signature .Your broker should arrange this .

You then continue to fly the IT flag .
If you are "control stopped " by the GF which I was recentlyoff Rome -you should be fine -just arrange insurance or have the previous owners cert as well .
As JFM infers sort of the de flagging - new reg properly -later and in the correct order.

 

[Pinnacle]

Hang on a minute! To get an SSR registration the applicant must make a declaration (during the application process) that the boat is not on any other register. OK, the UK officials do not check the truth of the declaration but you are most definitely making a false declaration/lying if you get a SSR for a boat already on IT or any other register. Each person can make their own mind up about that of course, but you should at least take care because the lie is on the record for ever and if you get found out and are, say, a member of a professional body in the UK then the consequences would be chunky

@DavidJ - that's quite funny because the most commonly used VAT exemption for non EU people keeping boats in the EU is the "TI" or Temporary Import scheme, which allows owner to use boat VAT free for 18months max. But the TI exemption relies on the boat being non EU flagged! You lose TI status if you EU flag the boat!

I feel very nervous about making this post..........but here goes.

Having just looked at the Part III registration web pages, it looks like you only have to declare that its not on ( or been on ) Part 1 of the register or is on Part III.

I couldn't see anywhere that you had to declare it was not on the register of any other country.

There, I have done it. Brave or what?


Happy to be corrected/told I am a fool etc.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Hang on a minute! To get an SSR registration the applicant must make a declaration (during the application process) that the boat is not on any other register.

In that case, I should have been banged up at her majesty's pleasure several times The process of deregistration, if necessary, and reregistration (under Part 1 in my case) can take weeks and months. You know as well as I do that without a registration document in your own name in the Med, you're stuffed which in effect means that you couldn't use your new boat after you've bought until such time as it was properly registered in your name. You can't visit another port or marina, you wouldn't have any registration document to show any inspecting authorities and in Croatia, you couldn't buy a cruising vignette which means that in theory you couldn't even take the boat out to sea. With my current boat I have both a current SSR document, which I used from the date that I bought the boat and a Part 1 document, which eventually came through several weeks later, so if the British Registry itself don't notice that I'm registered on both registries, who is?

 

[MapisM]

All he needs to sail it back / take out of Italian waters / cruise around ( for short time ) are....
Your BoS and one of these ---- "dichiarazione Di vendors Di imbarcazioni " will be signed by the seller and a photocopy on the back page of an official stamp by the authorities and there signature .Your broker should arrange this .
You then continue to fly the IT flag.

Ah, but! You haven't got an IT boat license, or have you?
In fact, I actually don't see any need for the declaration you mention: there's no rule on earth restricting you to helm a beautiful IT flagged Itama (or whatever) regardless of who is the owner.
But for as long as she's still IT flagged, and cruising in IT waters, there must be someone in command onboard (which doesn't necessarily mean the helmsman) with a proper license, i.e. the "unlimited" one if cruising at more than 12NM from the nearer coast, or the (easier to get, but still requiring an exam) "limited" one if cruising within 12NM.
Then again, it might well be that they just didn't bother asking.
Coming to think of it, I've actually been asked for my license maybe a couple of times in a quarter of a century...

PS: Mind, I'm sure that the insurance would dig into that before forking out any money, though...

 

[MapisM]

We were stopped off Sardinia recently by the Guardia Finanzia and they seemed very interested in who owned our boat

Just for the records, actually I'm pretty sure that this had something to see with the fact that you had a couple of Italians onboard.
Even if they didn't look like the proud owners of a stunning F630, as much as yourself and S didn't look like a paid crew, that's the typical scenario they are after....

 

[jfm]

I feel very nervous about making this post..........but here goes.

Having just looked at the Part III registration web pages, it looks like you only have to declare that its not on ( or been on ) Part 1 of the register or is on Part III.

I couldn't see anywhere that you had to declare it was not on the register of any other country.

There, I have done it. Brave or what?


Happy to be corrected/told I am a fool etc.

Hi Pinnacle! I stand corrected with apologies as regards my 2nd sentence - you are right that the application process doesn't ask this question. And I stand corrected generally, though I'm not sure to what extent because the law is strangely not clear. The law appears to require it, in the case of a change of registration (ie the law does not permit dual registration indefinitely) with a curious twist. The twist is that the law clearly says a ship cannot be a British ship if it is registered elsewhere; it then mandates the existence of a register of British ships, but when stating what ships are entitled to be on that register it doesn't stipulate Britishness of the ship as a condition. Go figure!

Merchant shipping Act 1995 says (with lots of bits snipped out so read with caution):

1. British ships and United Kingdom ships.
(1)A ship is a British ship if—...
(d) the ship is a small ship other than a fishing vessel and—
(iii)is not registered under the law of a country outside the United Kingdom.

3. Offences relating to British character of ship.
(1) If the master or owner of a ship which is not a British ship does anything, or permits anything to be done, for the purpose of causing the ship to appear to be a British ship then, except as provided by subsections (2) and (3) below, the ship shall be liable to forfeiture and the master, the owner and any charterer shall each be guilty of an offence....

6) Any person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £50,000;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine, or both.

So far so good, but that just deals with Britishness. Then you have the registration part which is curiously conflicting or at least inconsisten, namely:

8. Central register of British ships.
(1)There shall continue to be a register of British ships for all registrations of ships in the United Kingdom.
(2)The register shall be maintained by the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen as registrar.

9 Registration of ships: basic provisions.
(1) A ship is entitled to be registered if—
(a) it is owned, to the prescribed extent, by persons qualified to own British ships; and
(b) such other conditions are satisfied as are prescribed under subsection (2)(b) below;

(2) It shall be for registration regulations—
(a) to determine the persons who are qualified to be owners of British ships, or British ships of any class or description, and to prescribe the extent of the ownership required for compliance with subsection (1)(a) above;
(b) to prescribe other requirements designed to secure that, taken in conjunction with the requisite ownership, only ships having a British connection are registered.

(5) Where a ship becomes registered at a time when it is already registered under the law of a country other than the United Kingdom, the owner of the ship shall take all reasonable steps to secure the termination of the ship’s registration under the law of that country..

(7) Any person who contravenes subsection (5) above shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

The surprising thing is that 9(1) gives an entitlement to be registered without regard to Britishness of the ship (though the regulations referred to might, but I haven't time to search and read them). For non-UK readers, "regulations" have full force of UK law even though not contained in statute; instead the power to make regulations is contained in a statute but the regulations themselves are not brought before Parliament before becoming law; instead they are signed by the Queen in privy council. 9(5) clearly contemplates a temporary dual registration without making it an offence, which is exactly relevant to this thread.

So in conclusion I would want to read the regs if it were a matter of life/death but think a UK person is ok under UK law to have dual registration provided he is in a process of terminating the old one. I didn't know this previously - thanks for picking up the point Pinnacle. Beware of course that one would need to check there wasn't a breach of IT law in getting the UK registration while still on the IT register. The IT legislators might have drafted their law a bit more tidily than the UK folks did!

 

[jfm]

In that case, I should have been banged up at her majesty's pleasure several times The process of deregistration, if necessary, and reregistration (under Part 1 in my case) can take weeks and months. You know as well as I do that without a registration document in your own name in the Med, you're stuffed which in effect means that you couldn't use your new boat after you've bought until such time as it was properly registered in your name. You can't visit another port or marina, you wouldn't have any registration document to show any inspecting authorities and in Croatia, you couldn't buy a cruising vignette which means that in theory you couldn't even take the boat out to sea. With my current boat I have both a current SSR document, which I used from the date that I bought the boat and a Part 1 document, which eventually came through several weeks later, so if the British Registry itself don't notice that I'm registered on both registries, who is?

Yeah sure I am aware of all the practical difficulties. I was just throwing in a further piece of this complex jigsaw, which is the legal aspect, to ensure this forum is right. Especially as people were saying (eg Tranona above) that it is ok to have SSR/Part 3 on a boat flagged in another country, as if the rules clearly allowed that, which of course they don't. People can make up their own minds what to do down at the coal face of course.

 

[Pinnacle]

Hi Pinnacle! I stand corrected with apologies as regards my 2nd sentence - you are right that the application process doesn't ask this question. And I stand corrected generally, though I'm not sure to what extent because the law is strangely not clear. The law appears to require it, in the case of a change of registration (ie the law does not permit dual registration indefinitely) with a curious twist. The twist is that the law clearly says a ship cannot be a British ship if it is registered elsewhere; it then mandates the existence of a register of British ships, but when stating what ships are entitled to be on that register it doesn't stipulate Britishness of the ship as a condition. Go figure!

Merchant shipping Act 1995 says (with lots of bits snipped out so read with caution):

1. British ships and United Kingdom ships.
(1)A ship is a British ship if—...
(d) the ship is a small ship other than a fishing vessel and—
(iii)is not registered under the law of a country outside the United Kingdom.

3. Offences relating to British character of ship.
(1) If the master or owner of a ship which is not a British ship does anything, or permits anything to be done, for the purpose of causing the ship to appear to be a British ship then, except as provided by subsections (2) and (3) below, the ship shall be liable to forfeiture and the master, the owner and any charterer shall each be guilty of an offence....

6) Any person guilty of an offence under this section shall be liable—
(a)on summary conviction, to a fine not exceeding £50,000;
(b)on conviction on indictment, to imprisonment for a term not exceeding two years or a fine, or both.

So far so good, but that just deals with Britishness. Then you have the registration part which is curiously conflicting or at least inconsisten, namely:

8. Central register of British ships.
(1)There shall continue to be a register of British ships for all registrations of ships in the United Kingdom.
(2)The register shall be maintained by the Registrar General of Shipping and Seamen as registrar.

9 Registration of ships: basic provisions.
(1) A ship is entitled to be registered if—
(a) it is owned, to the prescribed extent, by persons qualified to own British ships; and
(b) such other conditions are satisfied as are prescribed under subsection (2)(b) below;

(2) It shall be for registration regulations—
(a) to determine the persons who are qualified to be owners of British ships, or British ships of any class or description, and to prescribe the extent of the ownership required for compliance with subsection (1)(a) above;
(b) to prescribe other requirements designed to secure that, taken in conjunction with the requisite ownership, only ships having a British connection are registered.

(5) Where a ship becomes registered at a time when it is already registered under the law of a country other than the United Kingdom, the owner of the ship shall take all reasonable steps to secure the termination of the ship’s registration under the law of that country..

(7) Any person who contravenes subsection (5) above shall be liable on summary conviction to a fine not exceeding level 3 on the standard scale.

The surprising thing is that 9(1) gives an entitlement to be registered without regard to Britishness of the ship (though the regulations referred to might, but I haven't time to search and read them). For non-UK readers "regulations" have full force of UK law even though not contained in statute; instead the power to make regulations is contained in a statute but the regulations themselves are not brought before Parliament before becoming law; instead they are signed by the Queen in privy council). 9(5) clearly contemplates a temporary dual registration without making it an offence, which is exactly relevant to this thread.

So in conclusion I would want to read the reg if it were a matter of life/death but think a UK person is ok under UK law to have dual registration provided he is in a process of terminating the old one. I didn't know this previously - thanks for picking up the point Pinnacle. Beware of course that one would need to check there wasn't a breach of IT law in getting the UK registration while still on the IT register. The IT legislators might have drafted their law a bit more tidily than the UK folks did!

Hi jfm

Phew!!!!! No apology to me needed.

That's a first for me........and I suspect puts me in a very tiny minority of Forumites.

All a bit academic to me as I wont need to put my next purchase on Part I or Part III.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

That's a first for me........and I suspect puts me in a very tiny minority of Forumites.

Your name must go on the honours board of those brave forumites not shot down in flames by jfm A proud day indeed. My name is certainly not up there

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Just for the records, actually I'm pretty sure that this had something to see with the fact that you had a couple of Italians onboard.
Even if they didn't look like the proud owners of a stunning F630, as much as yourself and S didn't look like a paid crew, that's the typical scenario they are after....

I know thats what you said at the time, Mapism but I was never quite so sure They took an awful long time checking us out

 

[Pinnacle]

I know thats what you said at the time, Mapism but I was never quite so sure They took an awful long time checking us out

Mike. I think it's the beard that makes MapisM a target for the fuzz!

 

[Pinnacle]

Your name must go on the honours board of those brave forumites not shot down in flames by jfm A proud day indeed. My name is certainly not up there

Tee Hee!!

 

[Portofino]

Ah, but! You haven't got an IT boat license, or have you?
In fact, I actually don't see any need for the declaration you mention: there's no rule on earth restricting you to helm a beautiful IT flagged Itama (or whatever) regardless of who is the owner.
But for as long as she's still IT flagged, and cruising in IT waters, there must be someone in command onboard (which doesn't necessarily mean the helmsman) with a proper license, i.e. the "unlimited" one if cruising at more than 12NM from the nearer coast, or the (easier to get, but still requiring an exam) "limited" one if cruising within 12NM.
Then again, it might well be that they just didn't bother asking.
Coming to think of it, I've actually been asked for my license maybe a couple of times in a quarter of a century...

PS: Mind, I'm sure that the insurance would dig into that before forking out any money, though...

MapishM I had a del skipper from Sardinia actually ,who came with all the correct licences .
With the help of the broker tried to dot I,s and cross T,s before we set off .
After 40 mins with GF skipper had a " conversation " -cos we wanted to be off.
He also came in handy when your Navey bore down on us and contacted us on the VHF -we ,actually I was helming and entered a military firing range .
Pic below shows arc turn port to get further off shore .
For the OP I would Deffinatley get an IT del skipper .PM me for more info on this .

I have to say all the Italian authorities / persons we had dealings with we're very nice ( southern ? )

 

[jrudge]

Is this a banned spot the boat picture ?