buying a boat and part 1 registry

abbott013

abbott013

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I have recieved a agreement for sale for a boat i am intending to buy, the problem is the vendor has only produced a ( 7 months ) out of date part 1 registration certifcate. It is my intention to register the vessel in my name. What i would like to know is, do i have any right to documentation ( bill of sale going back 5 years ) so i may change the registry intitlement over to me, and does he have to fill in a form Bill of Sale. What i do not understand is, does the wording of the sale agreement below mean the boat is registered or unregistered. is the vendor obliged under the agreement to fulfil all Part 1 registration requirements so i am the named owner.

7 Completion
Upon acceptance of the vessel by the Purchaser, the deposit shall be treated as part payment of the purchase price and within 7 days of
acceptance:-

(i) The Vendor shall
(a) in the case of a Registered vessel provide the Brokers with the Certificate of Registry, correct and updated, together with any
other documents appertaining to the vessel and shall execute a Bill of Sale in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee, showing
the vessel to be free from encumbrances and in such form as to ensure transfer on the Register. Should the purchaser so
require, the vendor shall provide the Broker with a Deletion Certificate, or sufficient instructions to cancel the existing registry and
enable the vessel to be re-registered by the purchaser.

or in the case of an unregistered vessel or vessel registered on the Small Ships Register, provide the Brokers with an executed
Bill of Sale in favour of the Purchaser or his nominee showing the vessel to be free from encumbrances and such other title
documents as are set out in the schedule to this Agreement, together with any other documents appertaining to the vessel.
(b) Deliver to the Brokers a Value Added Tax invoice, if applicable, and any necessary delivery order or other authority enabling the
Purchaser to take immediate possession of the vessel.
 
Looks pretty clear to me that in Section 7 i (a) the vendor is required to deliver a
valid Part 1 registration, Seven months out of date won't do. Are you buying privately or through a broker? I would have thought that any reputable broker would be playing by the rules. If you want chapter and verse, contact the MCA, in Cardiff,
I have found them very helpful to yachties.
 
Beware! It's over 30 years since I Part 1 Registered a boat that was not registered. It was quite a pallaver, requiring original receipts, Bills of Sale, etc. AFAIK you need to make sure that the present owner gets it up to date so you can re register without all the hassle that I had! In my view it's very important to keep a Part 1 Registration going-makes boat easier to sell because easier to prove title.
 
As said above, you will have complications if the part1 is not current. If it is still in date it can be fairly simple to re-register under the name of the new owner. You will need a Bill of Sale and also you will need to fill in a Declaration of Eligibility

Now, if there are more than one shareholder in the vessel, you have to be very careful how the Bill(s) of sale are filled out. When I bought Hannabella there were 4 shareholders. The Bill allows for Joint owners all filling out details on the same form, but only if they are all joint owners of the 64 shares. However if they own (say) 32 shares each then they are not classed as joint owners and so have to fill out a form each. The wording has to be exactly correct or else it will be rejected.

If the part 1 has expired then I believe you will also need a new Certificate of Survey (Tonnage Measurement).

So as said before, be careful. I would insist that you get an up to date one even if this means the previous owner has to get a new tonnage certificate. When he gives you a current part 1, then re-register it in your name.
 
Yes it is through a broker, one that is well advertised on the net, i wont mention any names but it resembles a point on a compass. I am really starting to get cheesed off with them, i have voiced my concerns in a letter but seem to be being ignored.
 
Hello Martin, You're having a bit of trial with this broker. I guess this a continuation of the saga we were talking about last week.

Returning to your initial question, above; it seems to my untrained eye that section a) does not apply since the vessel is not registered. Furthermore, since the vessel is Part 1 unregistered and neither has SSR then section b) does apply. This is exactly the opposite to what you are seeking to negotiate. I'm not expert enough to give you advice but if I was in your shoes it's time to be playing 'hard ball'. I'm with samwise - get on to MCA tomorrow and get them on side to advise you. Can you contact the owner direct? Is he aware of your needs? Has the broker dealt with him any better than with you - it's worth a go if you've not been in touch.

Whatever the temptation don't be seduced by giving your heart to the boat and letting it rule your head. Keep in touch and all the best.
 
Addendum: reading your terms again it's also the section commencing, "or in the case of an unregistered vessel..." that applies. Just what you don't want.
 
Martin, You asked a couple of very specific points. I can only share with you my own experience when buying my boat.

1. "do i have any right to documentation ( bill of sale going back 5 years )" - I got Bills of Sale for the last two owners and details of all previous owners. So Yes, you're entitled and need this to get Part 1 in your name - subject of discussion with MCA.

2. "does he have to fill in a form Bill of Sale" - he has to sign over the boat to you on a Bill of Sale. This is where you need to be careful in that since the Part 1 has expired I don't think the transfer of 64 shares (which proves he's sole owner) can apply. That's why the terms have the alternative clause "showing the vessel to be free from encumbrances and such other title". You will need such evidence to get Part 1 in your name - subject of discussion with MCA.

However, all difficulties can be circumvented if the present owner renews Part 1. How difficult is this after 7 months gap? - subject of discussion with MCA.

Cheers,

Ron
 
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the problem is the vendor has only produced a ( 7 months ) out of date part 1 registration certifcate

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Do you mean the certificate was issued 7 months ago, or that it expired 7 months ago? If the former then you have no problem, just check the register to ensure he's still the owner. You'll need a Bill of Sale to tranfer it to you. Check with the MCA if there's anything else they need. etc.

If the certificate expired 7 months ago, then work out if you want to reapply for it (/see if you can renew it late). But even in that case you're still better off than if you're buying an unregistered or SSR registered vessel. At least you know he owned it 7 months ago...
 
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Yes it is through a broker, one that is well advertised on the net, i wont mention any names but it resembles a point on a compass. I am really starting to get cheesed off with them, i have voiced my concerns in a letter but seem to be being ignored.

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Communication aside, it is always possible that the broker is having difficulty with the seller.

Firstly, I would find out from MCA the process involved in reregistering the boat, given that the registration lapsed in April, (or whenever).

I would then be tempted to advise the broker that you will not be proceeding with the purchase unless the seller reregisters the boat Part 1. I would probably confirm that I had spoken with MCA and provide some details of the process,then leave it at that and start looking for another boat.

Dont forget, it is really easy to convert your money into a boat, and really difficult to convert your boat into money.
 
I guess that by now Bananaman is thinking if Part One registration is worth all the hassle. If you are contemplating taking your boat outside the UK for some long distance cruising, that document is worth its weight in gold. In places like Spain and Portugal where the police can be difficult, the Part One does the business. With regard to where you go from here, I support Richard's view that you hold the ultimate sanction over the broker -- no valid Part One, no deal. But I will repeat my earlier suggestion, talk to the MCA to get the full picture.
 
As samwise says, the doc is exceptionally valuable. Play hard-ball. Whatever the broker may say, you are in a buyer's market and you are very unlikely to lose the boat by saying you wont move without up-to-date certificate. I'll bet the owner doesn't know the sale is being held up, as it should be a simple formality for him to sort it. Not a simple formality for you AFTER the sale. /forums/images/graemlins/frown.gif
 
I spoke to the broker today and told them that the vendor either registers the boat again or gives me bills of sale going back five years, or the sale is off. After some wrangling it turns out the broker has a bill off sale going back five years, very strange. Anyway they are doing another sale agreement including bills off sale. It sounds a bit Arthur Dailey all of this, i am looseing confidence with the broker, and i havent even had the boat surveyed yet. Good Grief
 
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After some wrangling it turns out the broker has a bill off sale going back five years, very strange.

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Why is it strange? This may be the bill of sale when the current owner bought it.
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Anyway they are doing another sale agreement including bills off sale.

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A bill of sale IS a sale agreement. It's just a fancy marine word for it.
 
Under this brokers code of practice they are meant to disclose all documentation relating to vessels being sold. Why are they holding back documentation ?. If you were going to spend a large amount of money on a boat, what would you be thinking.
 
I'd expect them to gather and show me, and explain to me, all the documentation prior to the sale. But not necessarily piecemeal as it comes in.

Sorry, it sounds like you are suffering from lack of communication with them at the moment, but from your question I had the impression that you're not really clear about the relative roles of Bills of Sale, and it whether the Part 1 registration had just expired, or just that the certificate was issued 7 months ago.

If the last certificate was issued 7 months ago and the registration is still current, then I wouldn't expect the seller/broker to check the register and give me a final excerpt from it/certificate before the day of the deal, because I'd want it to be as up to date as possible.

If the registration's expired, that's a bit different, but it's very unclear from your question.
 
The part 1 registration run out in may, it is a concern to me.
Sorry if i was not clear enough.
If it was not for the internet then i would have probably bought the boat by now and been kicking myself. but thank god there is so much information out there, and that includes this forum and the people on here that take the time to help.
 
[ QUOTE ]
I spoke to the broker today and told them that the vendor either registers the boat again or gives me bills of sale going back five years, or the sale is off. After some wrangling it turns out the broker has a bill off sale going back five years, very strange. Anyway they are doing another sale agreement including bills off sale. It sounds a bit Arthur Dailey all of this, i am looseing confidence with the broker, and i havent even had the boat surveyed yet. Good Grief

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Sounds very strange.... why did it need some wrangling for the broker to suddenly find a bill of sale which matches your requirements exactly... it was either there all the time, or it wasnt and, if it was there all the time, it would form a large part of the marketing/selling process. When did the current seller buy the boat? Who from? When was it registered Part 1? Was it bought/sold during the registered period? Why on earth did the seller let the registration lapse????? Are you sure it was registered? Have you seen the certificate? Have you asked the MCA to confirm that it was registered, but has now lapsed? have you asked the MCA what is involved in either you, or the current owner reregistering it?

Anybody can "create" a bill of sale, and it sounds like you are suspicious that the broker or seller has done this, (although it could make sense if the seller bought it registered in May 2001. I'd probably be walking away now... I've bought too many things over the years where something felt wrong, only to find out that I was right. But if I liked the boat, I would do some serious research to satisfy myself.. I might even employ a boat solicitor if there is such a thing.

I'm not saying that there is definitely a fiddle going on, but there is enough in what you say to make me/you wonder.

I might go back and say you want Part 1 registered as part of the sale... apologise for backtracking if you feel it appropriate.. you only have to say you dont feel comfortable. As has been said... I would guess it's not a big deal for the seller to reregister, and I would also guess that it will be a PIA for you to register it after purchase.

DONT BUY IT UNLESS IT FEELS DEAD RIGHT!!!
 
I recieved the new sales agreement this morning from the broker with a copy of bills of sales going back 5 years, unfortunatley the wording of the agreement also states i will recieve a copy of document, when i need the original.
I spoke to the vendor this morning, and it turns out he is holding the original document, he seems a little reluctant to hand it over. anyway he has been told that if i do not recieve the document as part of the agreement i will have no option but to cancel the sale.
This broker has now lied to me, be very carefull when dealing with brokers and check the wording of all documents.
Its time to get tough, i cannot stand liars.
 
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