Buying a berth at Port Vauban Antibes - Is that a deal?

[Eren]

I am thinking about buying a berth at Antibes. I am aware that the lease term is until end 2021 and then there will be a new owner of the marina with new terms and prices. But the prices look quite attractive at the moment. Are there any insider info from the forumites who are already there? Are there any rumours about what will happen after the handover at 2021? Do you think that I should go with it?

Thanks in advance for all your inputs

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

I am thinking about buying a berth at Antibes. I am aware that the lease term is until end 2021 and then there will be a new owner of the marina with new terms and prices. But the prices look quite attractive at the moment. Are there any insider info from the forumites who are already there? Are there any rumours about what will happen after the handover at 2021? Do you think that I should go with it?

Thanks in advance for all your inputs

It's looking very likely that there will no extension at all to the leases at PV. Last time I looked (latter part of last summer) 23x6's in less popular parts of the port had fallen slightly below rental value for the remaining term, although 15x5 were still holding up, and in high-demand spots (like Mole Sud) were still asking a significant premium to rental. There was a communication about the future of the port a couple of weeks ago (there was a discussion here) and I would have thought that that would have created further downward pressure on asking prices, although I haven't looked very recently.

 

[jfm]

I am thinking about buying a berth at Antibes. I am aware that the lease term is until end 2021 and then there will be a new owner of the marina with new terms and prices. But the prices look quite attractive at the moment. Are there any insider info from the forumites who are already there? Are there any rumours about what will happen after the handover at 2021? Do you think that I should go with it?

Thanks in advance for all your inputs

Depends on price - the prices are now about the sum of the remaining rents, plus a premium for (i) the fact you will probably have first refusal to become a renter in 2021, and (ii) security of tenure. That premium is pretty small though.

Remember you have annual service charge as owner but not as renter. €4-5k pa for a 23x6 approx.

There are no promises about 2021 but likelihood is they will rent to existing owners. When you have 1500 items to sell, the easiest thing it so sell to the current occupiers. New management is a JV whose principal investor is Caisse de Depot, who could be pretty sensible.

I think it is worth buying there!

In answer to your Q, yes there are loads of rumours but they are total guesses and should be ignored imho

 

[Eren]

Jimmy/JFM - Thanks for your valuable inputs!

My next questions would be:
- How is it like having your boat in Antibes? Are you happy being there?
- The berths that are with good pricing are around the Y-Quay. I think it is not the best part of the marina, right?

 

[Portofino]

A bit like Brexit ,Remainers or in your case a newbie and leavers ,plus indifferent wait n see .
How ever there's approx 4 y left .
The game is IMHO is more with the personalities in the back ground and egos rarther than pragmatic comman sence .
There's some info recently posted on I think there website about the new management that,s just taken over .
Presume they are working out the remaining lease so that (T+C s ) still stands basically as is untill 2021. ?

The recent just gone management /administration I heard -rumour ( you did ask for rumour !) has fallen out with the Mayors office .
The Mayors office have been wanting for a while now to develop the space by the Capitaneries office into restaurant s -to attract more tourists .I understand the management resisted .
A car park opened across the road next door a couple of y ago ,defeating the lack of parking argument .

One rumour 12 months old is the lease will pass to the mayors office ,who will settle some old scores - re development --- and I suspect some of that " investment " will be recouped by increasing the rents / charges from the berth holders .

Another Rumour 4 months hold -is that the guys on quay Millionaire -not wanting to be behold ing to the mayors office and "have a say " or putting together a bid via Paris to take over the Co when the lease is up .

As a sweetener they may too develop -follow the original mayors plan to buld retail /restaurant s etc .
There section is quite secluded uneffected in a detrimental way and you can bet - thay will looking to their berth holders to fund it .So here again I see excess over inflationary rent risers to exsisting berth holders ?

Of couse your boat can move and there will be a notice period - so those already IN ,may as well wait n see .

How ever the CURRENT lease expires in 2029 in La Napoule .We have successfully negotiated 2x 5 y extensions ---- and you never know -- we have not finished yet !!!

In the mean time we ,like everybody else will sit back over the next few years and watch with interest as all the leases arround end .
So a a newbie to the region my advise would be if you want buy a berth ,buy one with the longest lease or at least in the middle of the expiration pack and wait n see .
I,am confident of my sources to date .
As I said this will bring polarised opinions like Brexit

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

A bit like Brexit ,Remainers or in your case a newbie and leavers ,plus indifferent wait n see .
How ever there's approx 4 y left .
The game is IMHO is more with the personalities in the back ground and egos rarther than pragmatic comman sence .
There's some info recently posted on I think there website about the new management that,s just taken over .
Presume they are working out the remaining lease so that (T+C s ) still stands basically as is untill 2021. ?

The recent just gone management /administration I heard -rumour ( you did ask for rumour !) has fallen out with the Mayors office .
The Mayors office have been wanting for a while now to develop the space by the Capitaneries office into restaurant s -to attract more tourists .I understand the management resisted .
A car park opened across the road next door a couple of y ago ,defeating the lack of parking argument .

One rumour 12 months old is the lease will pass to the mayors office ,who will settle some old scores - re development --- and I suspect some of that " investment " will be recouped by increasing the rents / charges from the berth holders .

Another Rumour 4 months hold -is that the guys on quay Millionaire -not wanting to be behold ing to the mayors office and "have a say " or putting together a bid via Paris to take over the Co when the lease is up .

As a sweetener they may too develop -follow the original mayors plan to buld retail /restaurant s etc .
There section is quite secluded uneffected in a detrimental way and you can bet - thay will looking to their berth holders to fund it .So here again I see excess over inflationary rent risers to exsisting berth holders ?

Of couse your boat can move and there will be a notice period - so those already IN ,may as well wait n see .

How ever the CURRENT lease expires in 2029 in La Napoule .We have successfully negotiated 2x 5 y extensions ---- and you never know -- we have not finished yet !!!

In the mean time we ,like everybody else will sit back over the next few years and watch with interest as all the leases arround end .
So a a newbie to the region my advise would be if you want buy a berth ,buy one with the longest lease or at least in the middle of the expiration pack and wait n see .
I,am confident of my sources to date .
As I said this will bring polarised opinions like Brexit

Just one clarification L, there's approx 5 years left, not 4 - leases expire 31 December 2021.

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

Jimmy/JFM - Thanks for your valuable inputs!

My next questions would be:
- How is it like having your boat in Antibes? Are you happy being there?
- The berths that are with good pricing are around the Y-Quay. I think it is not the best part of the marina, right?

Eren, you should try a pm to Deleted User, he just bought a 23x6 on Mole Sud, and was originally looking at a very cheap berth at the root of the Y quay.

Antibes is a great place to keep a boat - easy access from Nice airport, lots of nice anchoring locations in close proximity, good year-round town.

 

[Seastoke]

2021 you may want to move ,or they will need the berth holders for cash flow ,good luck

 

[jfm]

Y quay is ok but south side of marina is nicest.

Porto that is all just rumour. You can't "take over" a private company; the sellers need to agree too. The lease expires and the marina returns to the state so the company has nothing anyway. All this talk in pubs is commercially naïve. Sure, La Napoule got extensions (and great work done there by Bart) but on the monopoly board of marinas it is only Vine Street and you can get lease extensions there for small change. No-one - especially an investor as financially literate as Caisse de Depot - is going to spend €20m capex there on a restaurant and club, so there's just no comparison between the two places.

Antibes berth rentals can't just sky rocket above other locations, because the laws of supply and demand apply. There are plenty of alternative berths in the Med; Vauban doesn't have a monopoly and the town would go crazy if the marina became 2/3rds full because of bad pricing such is its importance to the town's economy

 

[Portofino]

Y quay is ok but south side of marina is nicest.

Porto that is all just rumour. You can't "take over" a private company; the sellers need to agree too. The lease expires and the marina returns to the state so the company has nothing anyway. All this talk in pubs is commercially naïve. Sure, La Napoule got extensions (and great work done there by Bart) but on the monopoly board of marinas it is only Vine Street and you can get lease extensions there for small change. No-one - especially an investor as financially literate as Caisse de Depot - is going to spend €20m capex there on a restaurant and club, so there's just no comparison between the two places.

Antibes berth rentals can't just sky rocket above other locations, because the laws of supply and demand apply. There are plenty of alternative berths in the Med; Vauban doesn't have a monopoly and the town would go crazy if the marina became 2/3rds full because of bad pricing such is its importance to the town's economy

Op requested Rumours i gave him two with a capital R

'Take over " was not mean,t in the literal buy it that sence - it was to mean gain control -call the shots ,set the fees ,plan the capex ( with or with out outside € ) -put there people in charge , from 2022

There is a glimmer for you ---joining up some distant dots .--one could get this image ?------

Now the Mayor unfriendly team have been replaced within the Dec 2021 expiration date -if Caisse de Depot and the mayors office work better together --then for the developement of the retail /restaurants by the new management at the mayors office,s delight ---- you too may get a lease extension .Mayor like this as zero cost to public

Paid for ---well JFM this s your detail --- a loan % and a % on charges over the remaining -remember - now extened term or WHY ?

The thing with this type of stuff in France a glacier moves faster -marina proposes a plan ( artictects etc ) -mayors -local public consultation - regional office /consultation --then up to Paris --then ammendments at each stage -up and down the chain .

As I said all depends on "personalities and ego,s " of the players

 

[Portofino]

Antibes berth rentals can't just sky rocket above other locations, because the laws of supply and demand apply. There are plenty of alternative berths in the Med; Vauban doesn't have a monopoly and the town would go crazy if the marina became 2/3rds full because of bad pricing such is its importance to the town's economy

All agreed
As it is now a steady state uncallanged .
Will never get 2/3 rds or what ever full as it s Managed now -let's be frank there's a lot of low end of the market stuff .
Initially a seemingly sucession of over the market steep rent rises will force out the weakest in a financial sence .
Open up spaces to redevelop berths -read that as basically increase size ,across the board .Little berth holders feeling it more .Direction of travel will be a migration towards bigger boats cum super yachts .
You need less physical bigger boats /superyacht s to occupie the exsisting space vacated by 100x or what ever less affluent boaters .These new guys will happy ,or more like not sensitive to relative rents ---they want to be here .
In the next decade the new management ( if controlled by the "millionaire syndicate " ) - will meet big yacht /call it superyacht demand ----because they can .
There will be no empty water spaces .-just bigger boats !

This will attract the hoy polloy to the town ,who will be able to dine insight of X Y Z,d superyacht -and take selfies of its stern while sat down at the table ,after looking at the owner on social media -complaining about them
The shops inthe town will turn gradually into a mini ,or maxi Bond Street to meet the demand .

Hopefully for me property prices will rise as Antibes matures next decade .

Agree can,t see an empty Marina --- for long

 

[Hurricane]

If you are looking for a long term berth - have a look at Marina d Arechi.
They are offering 80 years.

 

[Eren]

What I understand from all is, buying a berth from PV is a gamble, but it is a nice gamble. The worst scenerio is, the new owners will increase the price enormously and we may have to leave. But what we pay to buy a berth now is like pre-paying marina fees for 5 years, nothing more than that. So we won't lose anything if we will have to leave 5 years later. But, even though it is a slight possibility, if the term is extended as they did it in La Napoule, then it is a very big prize! So with this gambling, there are no chances of losing and there is a slight chance of getting a big prize. Do I get it correct?

 

[Portofino]

What I understand from all is, buying a berth from PV is a gamble, but it is a nice gamble. The worst scenerio is, the new owners will increase the price enormously and we may have to leave. But what we pay to buy a berth now is like pre-paying marina fees for 5 years, nothing more than that. So we won't lose anything if we will have to leave 5 years later. But, even though it is a slight possibility, if the term is extended as they did it in La Napoule, then it is a very big prize! So with this gambling, there are no chances of losing and there is a slight chance of getting a big prize. Do I get it correct?

Yes -- if you are flexible on your next move if you are forced out .Cos they are not planning any new marina s any time soon in the SoF .Or willing to pay a now distorted upwards circa 2021-2022 ish local berth price for those with reasonable lease left ! But you can re assess in the aftermath .

 

[Eren]

If you are looking for a long term berth - have a look at Marina d Arechi.
They are offering 80 years.

Thanks for the info Hurricane. Frankly speaking I am not in favour of keeping a boat somewhere too long. In my rather short boating life of 6 years, I had my boats 4 years in Turkey, 1 year in Monaco and 1 year in Montenegro. Again Cote d'azur is in the plan, which may be followed up by Balearics or Sardinia. I understood and built up the confidence that I can look after my boat, set up a guardinage system no matter wherever the boat is. With all my respect to the ones who like to stay at the same location for many years, changing my home marina every 2-3 years looks more attractive to me. Med is big and it so nice to see and live different parts of it.

 

[Eren]

And do I really get some income if I don't use the berth and the Capitanerie rents it out for me?

 

[Portofino]

And do I really get some income if I don't use the berth and the Capitanerie rents it out for me?

In La Nap yes less 20 % commission --they knock it off the management fee .In the high season you just notify em ,they are grateful -can say yes to vistors and the 20% ,s from all add up to € . .8 M. Which go into the running pot -so all benefit .
Antibes may be diff --some one will come along ---they all have slightly diff policies .

In fact that's how I got into boating -renting a berth out 11-% yeald net ------ until a clause they informed me that 24 month was max ! -then I got a boat to fill it and liked it -went from there ,

 

[Eren]

In La Nap yes less 20 % commission --they knock it off the management fee .In the high season you just notify em ,they are grateful -can say yes to vistors and the 20% ,s from all add up to € . .8 M. Which go into the running pot -so all benefit .
Antibes may be diff --some one will come along ---they all have slightly diff policies .

In fact that's how I got into boating -renting a berth out 11-% yeald net ------ until a clause they informed me that 24 month was max ! -then I got a boat to fill it and liked it -went from there ,

That is really very interesting information ! 11% yield looks very good. I didn't understand your words "someone will come along". And why do you think that it is difficult at Antibes?

 

[Portofino]

That is really very interesting information ! 11% yield looks very good. I didn't understand your words "someone will come along". And why do you think that it is difficult at Antibes?

There are a few different modals to the leases and the management -they are not all the same , devil is in the detail .
"some one "from Antibes ,a berth holder will post the route of where the € go and how it works when the Capitaneries fill a vacant berth holders place @ Antibes ,

I don,t think it's as generous as La Nap - we are all share holders ( pro -rata ) and hold the management to account via AGM s EGM,s - and votes on propersitions -Directors need the berth holders support ---or they go -tenure not renewed .
So any Turkeys get to vote on banning Christmass in La Nap @ the 1st AGM .

I think Antibes -marina -happy to stand corrected can manage with minimal berth holder input ..
The Turkeys in Antibes have to accept an annual Christmass if management want that .
Awaiting an Antibes berth holder to clarify -how much say so they have and what happens to the rental € if Capitaneries put a punter in when they are out ?

 

[jimmy_the_builder]

There are a few different modals to the leases and the management -they are not all the same , devil is in the detail .
"some one "from Antibes ,a berth holder will post the route of where the € go and how it works when the Capitaneries fill a vacant berth holders place @ Antibes ,

I don,t think it's as generous as La Nap - we are all share holders ( pro -rata ) and hold the management to account via AGM s EGM,s - and votes on propersitions -Directors need the berth holders support ---or they go -tenure not renewed .
So any Turkeys get to vote on banning Christmass in La Nap @ the 1st AGM .

I think Antibes -marina -happy to stand corrected can manage with minimal berth holder input ..
The Turkeys in Antibes have to accept an annual Christmass if management want that .
Awaiting an Antibes berth holder to clarify -how much say so they have and what happens to the rental € if Capitaneries put a punter in when they are out ?

I can't remember what the percentage is at PV, I thought 15% commission to the capitanerie +tva but may be wrong. You're still liable for service charges when the berth is rented out. In general you have no say over who rents your berth, the capitanerie manage it all autonomously. However, I can think of a couple of examples where owners have influenced who exactly has been installed on their berths, so it can happen.

23x6 and 15x5 both rent well, especially in the high season. Smaller berths, not so well (I realise this is an academic point for the OP!).