Buyer be ware when Buying boats from France without proof of VAT

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Personally, regardless of the chances of being asked to pay the vat on a boat I purchased, I wouldn't buy one without proof of vat paid (unless I got it for 20% less than it's real worth). I just wouldn't want that niggling feeling that one day it's going to come and bite me on the ar$e.

Thats exactly how I feel. Why burden yourself with a potential future problem, however remote the risk, when there are plenty of boats out there for sale with a proper VAT invoice?

 

[tico]

Think that we've been down this path before.
In reality, if the boat in question is fairly new & of high value then it probably IS a consideration.

But who's going to ask for all the docs for a £500 speedboat that's 20 years old sold at a boat jumble?

 

[Whitelighter]

An invoice from a boat dealer diesbt prove VAT has been paid to HMRC. It merely shows that the dealer charged it.
Can you tell the difference between an invoice a dealer prints on a printer in his office and an invoice you print in your office?

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But who's going to ask for all the docs for a £500 speedboat that's 20 years old sold at a boat jumble?

Nobody but when you're talking about a boat worth '000s of pounds, then it becomes much more of an issue and its not even a risk that a buyer has to take anyway

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

.
Can you tell the difference between an invoice a dealer prints on a printer in his office and an invoice you print in your office?

Well apart from the obvious point that it would be fraud and a criminal act, I suppose the answer is no. I guess if you're buying from France and the French seller presents you with a fake invoice from the supplying dealer accounting for VAT, I suppose the chances of being found out are pretty small. However, I may be wrong on this, but I think you as the buyer would be liable for the VAT payment if the fraud was exposed so caveat emptor

 

[MapisM]

An invoice from a boat dealer diesbt prove VAT has been paid to HMRC. It merely shows that the dealer charged it.
Can you tell the difference between an invoice a dealer prints on a printer in his office and an invoice you print in your office?

Maybe you can't tell that just by looking at a piece of paper, but the difference is that in the first case you are a victim of a fraud, while in the latter you are a fraudster yourself.
But most importantly, why bother?
If there's one comment that springs to my mind every time I read these VAT threads, that's "yawn..."
Back in 2009, I bought a boat in the UK from a UK citizen. He wasn't the first owner, and didn't have the original invoice.
The transaction papers we made (with some support from jfm btw, thanks again J) were in my opinion more than good enough to avoid any claims from fiscal authorities (anywhere in EU, not just in my home Country), without making up any false document.
In fact, a few years later, I sold the boat without any troubles whatsoever.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

But most importantly, why bother?

Well one good reason is this. I don't know whats it like now but certainly a few years ago UK marine mortgage companies asked for sight of an invoice to prove VAT payment because of course whether or not a boat is VAT paid affects its value and hence how much the mortgage company is willing to lend on it. Whilst that might not affect you as the current owner it might affect a future potential buyer of your boat and hence your ability to sell your boat

In any case as I keep saying, even if the risk is tiny, why pay the full VAT paid price for a boat without VAT documents when there are so many out there with VAT documents?

Obviously buying a non VAT paid boat at a reduced price and not bothering to pay VAT on it yourself is another matter altogether (if you can find a way of doing it)

 

[Whitelighter]

Well apart from the obvious point that it would be fraud and a criminal act, I suppose the answer is no. I guess if you're buying from France and the French seller presents you with a fake invoice from the supplying dealer accounting for VAT, I suppose the chances of being found out are pretty small. However, I may be wrong on this, but I think you as the buyer would be liable for the VAT payment if the fraud was exposed so caveat emptor

Yes, it's fraud but my point is how can you tell.

Everyone seems to put a lot of value in a piece of paper you have no way of checking is genuine and can be created by anyone with a half decent idea of how to use photoshop and acrobat. Especially as it's quite posdible, even likely, that the selling dealer went out of business years ago and their records were burnt.

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

Everyone seems to put a lot of value in a piece of paper you have no way of checking is genuine and can be created by anyone with a half decent idea of how to use photoshop and acrobat. Especially as it's quite posdible, even likely, that the selling dealer went out of business years ago and their records were burnt.

Yes you're absolutely right. It would certainly be possible to manufacture a VAT invoice with a bit of skill. The only place I have heard where they take a close interest in any VAT invoice is Croatia, particularly for those boats entering from Montenegro which, of course, is still outside the EU. BartW can perhaps say more about this

 

[BartW]

Yes you're absolutely right. It would certainly be possible to manufacture a VAT invoice with a bit of skill. The only place I have heard where they take a close interest in any VAT invoice is Croatia, particularly for those boats entering from Montenegro which, of course, is still outside the EU. BartW can perhaps say more about this

yes in Croatia customs are persistent on having a VAT payed document, each time when passing the border,
but I'm not sure if they check any of the documents they get,
they just fotocopy and place them on top of a big pile,
let alone that they can understand anything from the many different forms and languages that they get.

In my case, I show them a Italian Invoice from the previous owner (VAT registered company), with 0% VAT rate,
and a document that prooves VAT declaration of that invoice in my company VAT declaration from that month,
lots of pages in Dutch, of what they understand no single word, ....

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

lots of pages in Dutch, of what they understand no single word, ....

Ah so thats the key to it! Have all your documents in a language nobody understands. I have just learnt something today because I didn't realise that Dutch is one of the official languages of Belgium

 

[BartW]

I have just learnt something today because I didn't realise that Dutch is one of the official languages of Belgium

for those interested, Belgium has three official Languages,
German, French and Flamisch,
but the official name of Flamish is Nederlands, = Dutch

 

[Deleted User YDKXO]

for those interested, Belgium has three official Languages,
German, French and Flamisch,
but the official name of Flamish is Nederlands, = Dutch

Do people generally speak all 3 official languages?

 

[rlw]

Dutch,French, English is the most common combo. Some people add German to that.
I only speak german after too many beers in a ski resort

 

[BartW]

Do people generally speak all 3 official languages?

No !

the germans are only a very small number, many of them speak french aswell, no flamish

the French on average don't speak dutch nor german

the flamish on average do speak French,
not many speak German, although my local dialect that a speak with my wife ressembles very much to german, germans will understand most of it..
but with Germans (many business relations) I speak English.