But the Europeans are right to ban red diesel...

[Bloater]

There are so many threads on the forums about red diesel therefore I hesitate before adding another... But does anyone else see this from the perpective of the Europeans?

The Europeans have agricultural diesel and heating gas oil just as we do and in some countries they also use the same red dye (according to Wikipedia anyway). Less tax is applied to this marked fuel and therefore every country should have a right to control its use on their roads or in marine pleasure craft.

The only way to ensure that this happens is to ban it from all cars and pleasure boats, and so that is what the Belgians are doing.

However how can they achieve any ban for the use in boats if they are expected to turn a blind eye to this marked fuel just because some of it might have originated from the UK? For the Belgians to allow any marked fuel in boats would mean that the unscupulous Belgian boater could just constantly fill up on cheap local heating fuel and expect to get away with it.

That's why this argument is about the marking of fuel and nothing to do with 60/40 splits and UK taxes. We should just accept their ruling and either use white diesel or not visit them.

 

[TrueBlue]

Doesn't compute

Why is it more likely for UK peeps to pop over the border and sell their Red
than for a Belgian commercial boat or farmer to sell their Red??

No they are hacked off 'cos it is seen that the Perfidious Albion has stolen a march on them and is applying the directive literally
We pay full duty on that part that is deemed to be pure propulsion and a rebated tax on the rest as is permitted in the directives.

 

[ontheplane]

And their fuel is so much cheaper anyhow!!

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way - it's not whether our Boat Diesel should go up to meet EU demands, but surely ALL our diesel should come DOWN to match our EU cousins???

 

[gjgm]

And their fuel is so much cheaper anyhow!!

Perhaps we're looking at this the wrong way - it's not whether our Boat Diesel should go up to meet EU demands, but surely ALL our diesel should come DOWN to match our EU cousins???

Unfortunately we have a few hundred billion pounds of deficit to pay off, and someone has to pay it.In fact it is only by taxing everyone it is even vaguely possible.

Fuel is an easy one bcz almost everyone uses it. You could try 20p on milk a litre, but I suspect we dont drink enough milk!

 

[ian38_39]

Contentious as it is I agree with the op.

The UK control problem is the same as Belgium's but as HMRC didn't see the point of getting rid of red for leisure boats in the first place I would guess they are less concerned about policing it.

In order for the UK to have a lower rate of tax on a boat fuel than road fuel it must be something that has not traditionally used through Europe to signify duty free or reduced duty fuel.

If it is identifiable as UK duty paid marine fuel and can not be confused with other countries agricultural, heating or commercial fuel it would remove all arguments.

That of course assumes that Belgium is genuinely concerned about enforcing It's own laws and it is not just sour grapes.

 

[Chrusty 1]

Contentious as it is I agree with the op.

The UK control problem is the same as Belgium's but as HMRC didn't see the point of getting rid of red for leisure boats in the first place I would guess they are less concerned about policing it.

In order for the UK to have a lower rate of tax on a boat fuel than road fuel it must be something that has not traditionally used through Europe to signify duty free or reduced duty fuel.

If it is identifiable as UK duty paid marine fuel and can not be confused with other countries agricultural, heating or commercial fuel it would remove all arguments.

That of course assumes that Belgium is genuinely concerned about enforcing It's own laws and it is not just sour grapes.

I posted this on another thread but just in case you haven't seen it.......

http://www.pbo.co.uk/news/530844/rya-using-red-diesel-in-foreign-waters-will-not-be-unlawful

Apologies for cross thread posting.

C.

 

[hlb]

At my local garage, it still has written on it. DERV, forget what the initial exactly say, but it means Diesel For Road Vehicles. The other pump is red diesel, which is for vehicles that do not use the roads, or not very much anyway.

As I have yet to see a boat sailing on the road, I'll assume it is not a road vehicle.

Blame the EU for cocking something up that our government never wanted. (Of either persuasion).

At the stroke of a pen, the EU have decimated a whole big industry and made thousands unemployed, whilst taking less tax in at the same time.

The inmates are running the asylum.

 

[Jim@sea]

Another Nail

At my local garage, it still has written on it. DERV, forget what the initial exactly say, but it means Diesel For Road Vehicles. The other pump is red diesel, which is for vehicles that do not use the roads, or not very much anyway. QUOTE.
I wonder why we never notice when change happens, or at least do nothing. As long as its the government wanting revenue we just accept it. White diesel was taxed to pay for the improvement of roads. Red diesel was so coloured to identify exempt diesel for farmers and central heating fuel. But in latter years too many people used Red Diesel in cars on the road. I know. I sold diesel for tractors from my Agricultural Farm shop, and it was surprising how many of my customers would turn up with a couple of 5 gallon drums wanting diesel for their tractor when you knew that they only had a couple of horses on one acre and no tractor. (in fact one bunch of travellers turned up with brand new 4X4 and wanted it filling up) Its this which has ruined the supply of red diesel for both farmers and boat owners.
I remember (being a clever sod) going to Tax a Metro "Farmers Goods" for £20 instead of the usual £50 and the tax office asked me how I used the Metro for farming and I replied that I went to market to buy chickens.
What thats got to do with the Red Diesel discussion I dont know but its another concession lost forever
Here is another (Sorry) Agricultural Buildings are Exempt from Rates. I have 30 stables (true) the Government decides that Horses are not an Agricultural Animal so they slap Business Rates on Stables.
Whats next ?

 

[maby]

At my local garage, it still has written on it. DERV, forget what the initial exactly say, but it means Diesel For Road Vehicles. The other pump is red diesel, which is for vehicles that do not use the roads, or not very much anyway.

As I have yet to see a boat sailing on the road, I'll assume it is not a road vehicle.

Blame the EU for cocking something up that our government never wanted. (Of either persuasion).

At the stroke of a pen, the EU have decimated a whole big industry and made thousands unemployed, whilst taking less tax in at the same time.

The inmates are running the asylum.

(COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/96/EC) :


Article 14
1. In addition to the general provisions set out in Directive
92/12/EEC on exempt uses of taxable products, and without
prejudice to other Community provisions, Member States shall
exempt the following from taxation under conditions which
they shall lay down for the purpose of ensuring the correct and
straightforward application of such exemptions and of
preventing any evasion, avoidance or abuse:

…

(c) energy products supplied for use as fuel for the purposes of
navigation within Community waters (including fishing),
other than private pleasure craft, and electricity produced
on board a craft.
For the purposes of this Directive ‘private pleasure craft’
shall mean any craft used by its owner or the natural or
legal person who enjoys its use either through hire or
through any other means, for other than commercial
purposes and in particular other than for the carriage of
passengers or goods or for the supply of services for
consideration or for the purposes of public authorities.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

(COUNCIL DIRECTIVE 2003/96/EC) :


Article 14
1. In addition to the general provisions set out in Directive
92/12/EEC on exempt uses of taxable products, and without
prejudice to other Community provisions, Member States shall
exempt the following from taxation under conditions which
they shall lay down for the purpose of ensuring the correct and
straightforward application of such exemptions and of
preventing any evasion, avoidance or abuse:

…

(c) energy products supplied for use as fuel for the purposes of
navigation within Community waters (including fishing),
other than private pleasure craft, and electricity produced
on board a craft.
For the purposes of this Directive ‘private pleasure craft’
shall mean any craft used by its owner or the natural or
legal person who enjoys its use either through hire or
through any other means, for other than commercial
purposes and in particular other than for the carriage of
passengers or goods or for the supply of services for
consideration or for the purposes of public authorities.

Why on earth do you keep quoting from EU directives? Aside from the fact that excerpts are dangerous as you need to read the whole thing to correctly interpret them, they do NOT apply to individuals. This is about Belgian law, not EU directives.

 

[maby]

Why on earth do you keep quoting from EU directives? Aside from the fact that excerpts are dangerous as you need to read the whole thing to correctly interpret them, they do NOT apply to individuals. This is about Belgian law, not EU directives.

I'm quoting EU directives because they are the Belgians' justification for the laws that they are enforcing on us. You are quite correct, directives apply to countries, not individuals. Each country has limited powers to enforce laws that are more strict than the directives, but they are required to enact laws that implement the directives.

 

[grumpy_o_g]

I'm quoting EU directives because they are the Belgians' justification for the laws that they are enforcing on us. You are quite correct, directives apply to countries, not individuals. Each country has limited powers to enforce laws that are more strict than the directives, but they are required to enact laws that implement the directives.

The justification for the law is totally irellevant to the individual- you won't get off the charge by claiming the law's unfair, especially in a lower court. It's ONLY the Belgian law that matters to the individual and to a lower court where a case will be heard, nothing else.

It is possible that the law is not in line with the directives - for example it could be a valid Belgian law until free passage is considered - but, without even knowing what Belgian law actually says, a significant proportion of those who don't use much diesel aren't won't be heavily impacted are advocating, even encouraging, just giving up. I find that surprising and appallingly selfish.

 

[maby]

The justification for the law is totally irellevant to the individual- you won't get off the charge by claiming the law's unfair, especially in a lower court. It's ONLY the Belgian law that matters to the individual and to a lower court where a case will be heard, nothing else.

It is possible that the law is not in line with the directives - for example it could be a valid Belgian law until free passage is considered - but, without even knowing what Belgian law actually says, a significant proportion of those who don't use much diesel aren't won't be heavily impacted are advocating, even encouraging, just giving up. I find that surprising and appallingly selfish.

I'm not sure we are actually disagreeing here - it is, of course, the Bengian (and, potentially, Dutch and French) law that is penalising us, but the only hope we have of overturning it is to show that it contravenes one or more EU directives - hence the interest in the directives. If the laws the Belgians are applying to us are consistent with the directives, we have little chance of winning.