KINGFISHER 9
Well-Known Member
Dear old Eric Hiscock will be whirling in his grave! I'm sure burgee to port is correct!
Burgee on port spreader when flying a courtesy flag
- Thread starter Crazy-Diamond
- Start date
neil1967
Well-Known Member
If you are flying a burgee (RAFSA, RNSA, CA, etc) because you are required to due to the ensign you are wearing, then the correct position is on the starboard side. On the other hand if you are merely flying them to show you are members of the association and you are not wearing the associated ensign then the port spreader is correct
Kukri
Well-Known Member
Having been a CA member back in the New Stone Age, I recently re-joined. My old ensign was perfectly good and I got a Warrant for it along with a new burgee. I then asked for a Membership Flag and I can report a genuine change in Flag Etiquette.
In the old days the Membership Flag, a square flag, was flown as a house flag, if wearing the ensign and burgee of AN Other Club.
It is now used as a gin pennant.
I have topped up the gin supplies.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
I don’t think Eric will be too worried.
Bernard Hayman, who wrote a book called “Flag Signalling” whilst he was Editor of Yachting Workd, will be having litters of kittens!
PS. Must find my copy!
[3889]
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What's with the legally required courtesy flag? RYA advice is:
"There is no legal requirement to fly a courtesy flag; it is a courtesy that acknowledges that the vessel will respect the laws and sovereignty of that country. However, if one is not flown or it is tatty or faded, it may cause grave offence and in some countries can lead to a fine".
Pretty oxymoronic. Other sites suggest it is not a requirement. Or is the term "fine" a euphamism for bakshees?
"There is no legal requirement to fly a courtesy flag; it is a courtesy that acknowledges that the vessel will respect the laws and sovereignty of that country. However, if one is not flown or it is tatty or faded, it may cause grave offence and in some countries can lead to a fine".
Pretty oxymoronic. Other sites suggest it is not a requirement. Or is the term "fine" a euphamism for bakshees?
Kukri
Well-Known Member
The words “IN BRITAIN” should be added after “legal requirement”.
Anyone who tries not flying a courtesy flag outside the EU and Norway may be in for a very unpleasant surprise.
RichardS
N/A
It's not a legal requirement to fly a courtesy flag in the UK but try explaining to an official in another country who has taken exception to your lack of one that "it's not actually a legal requirement in your country". :ambivalence:
Richard
Richard
Heckler
Well-Known Member
Especially when he has mirrored shades, black uniform, crushed peak hat and especially that 9mm pistol that they all carry!
rotrax
Well-Known Member
I dont believe you are correct. See post 22.
If flying a defaced Blue with a warrant, Starboard side is used.
Old Bumbulum
Well-Known Member
Methinks the blowhard in this case is the rude, arrogant and disrespectful person who deliberately courts controversy by flying a 'courtesy' flag under a club burgee, and then objects when corrected by someone with a more highly developed sense of manners and respect...
Do that in Turkey and some other places and you'll soon find out that they don't regard a national insult as 'trivia'. It can cost big.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
See post 22.
The warrant requires the CA burgee to be flown. Like most contemporary yachts, we dont have a masthead burgee stick.
As I said, life is too short.
In NZ, where First Mate and I winter, hanging out with the Grandchildren, yacht flag etiquette is unknown.
The only yachts/motorboats flying ANY flags/burgee's-apart from the busy weekend and evening race flags- appear not to be NZ boats-in Wellington Harbour anyway.
It is much more relaxed..........................................
Resolution
Well-Known Member
I'm all for relaxation, but what percentage of the yachts you see in NZ are not local yachts? How many from other countries? In the Med, the Caribbean and perhaps the English Channel we have a number of different countries represented. So some sort of distinguishing characteristics are both useful and interesting.
Kukri
Well-Known Member
My late father, whose sailing career ran from 1919 to 1985, used to say that flying an ensign of any kind in “home waters” used to be considered “tripperish”. Seems the Kiwis still observe that rule, and good for them.
I started a thread about burgees vs ironmongery at the masthead a while back. Here we are:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...quette-ironmongery-at-the-masthead&highlight=
I have followed Pyrojames’ excellent advice.
I started a thread about burgees vs ironmongery at the masthead a while back. Here we are:
http://www.ybw.com/forums/showthrea...quette-ironmongery-at-the-masthead&highlight=
I have followed Pyrojames’ excellent advice.
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Old Bumbulum
Well-Known Member
Rotrax, life is never too short to be a rude and disrespectful guest in another country.
You'd have saved yourself the trouble of the unnecessary lesson on flag etiquette had you troubled to read post #3...
You'd have saved yourself the trouble of the unnecessary lesson on flag etiquette had you troubled to read post #3...
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Graham376
Well-Known Member
I had a visit from PM for not showing ensign on mooring. Was told in no uncertain terms that as a foreign visitor to Portugal, the ensign and courtesy flag must be permanently displayed, day and night. Another time, off the coast of France, boat we were sailing in company with was asked his nationality and told to display ensign or face fine.
rotrax
Well-Known Member
With respect, in post #3 you incorectly state there is no compulsion to fly a burgee.
Well, the CA is clear-if the defaced blue is used, the CA burgee must also be flown. As per the Warrant. WHERE it is flown appears to be the problem!
Not just France is tolerant of my positioning, the Irish were happy-2 seasons there, many, many ports and harbours visited, plus several customs inspections. I asked the HM in Peel the very question-are you happy with the Manx courtesy flag under the burgee. The reply was enlightening.
"Dont give a toss mate-have it where you like!"
As I say, flag etiquette is a subject that gets many traditionalists out of shape. The RYA's advice is ambiguous to say the least. And they admit as much.
The Royal Torbay YC issues defaced ensign rules that certainly dont comply with international requirements, but will be fine in home waters.
Bit of a paradox really.....................................
As a seasoned world traveller, I have never been knowingly rude or disrespectfull to a host country.
Old Bumbulum
Well-Known Member
I say again, take the trouble to actually read my post #3
There is no compulsion to fly a burgee.
That's because there is no compulsion to wear your special ensign. I repeat, you always have the option of reverting to the red ensign if you can't comply with correct etiquette.
I'm afraid I, and most others who do beleive in correct etuiquette will take issue with your last sentence as you've openly admitted as much by flying your burgee above the courtesy flag which as you full well know is internationally regarded as disrespectful and in some countries would be taken as a direct national insult.
Had you read my #3 you'd also have seen my suggestion to defuse the matter altogether with an inboard stbd flag halliard for the burgee. So simple...
Last time I was in Bermuda in St George's a (french) Canadian catamaran tied up astern of us with a small Bermudan courtesy flag and a huge Canadian flag on the backstay the size of a Naval battle ensign. The harbour master who was on our boat excused himself and went across to where they were still tying up and told them in no uncertain terms that unless they adjusted their attitude, showed some respect and took the bloody thing down they could **** off right back out of his harbour.
I was admonished two or three times in Turkey on each occasion sternly and sharply (very unusual in Turkey, who are the most polite of people) for having a Turkish flag that was ever so slightly faded and on one occasion a brand new one with a few threads blown out of a seam. By passers-by, not officials.
So people do care, despite the sloppy, laissez-faire attitude so sadly prevalent in UK.
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JohnGC
Well-Known Member
There is also an argument that, the warrant required to fly a defaced ensign only has jurisdiction in GB & NI waters. Due to the warrant being issued by the Crown rather than the UK government. (There was a CA article on this a couple of years ago.)
Assuming one accepts this (and I'm certainly no expert), then a special ensign should not be worn in foreign waters and the requirement to fly the club burgee with the special ensign is removed along with starboard spreader conflicts.
Edit: For those with access to the CA "Cruising" magazine, the article starts on page 31 of the March 2014 edition. The essence of the argument is;
- The Queen's warrants where issued without passing through parliament.
- Only legislation passed formally though parliament is recognised internationally.
- Wearing a foreign courtesy flag indicates that one will obey the local laws.
- Those local laws do not recognise anything but the red for civilian craft.
- So wearing a courtesy flag and a blue in foreign waters is saying one will respect the local laws while actually breaking them.
Assuming one accepts this (and I'm certainly no expert), then a special ensign should not be worn in foreign waters and the requirement to fly the club burgee with the special ensign is removed along with starboard spreader conflicts.
Edit: For those with access to the CA "Cruising" magazine, the article starts on page 31 of the March 2014 edition. The essence of the argument is;
- The Queen's warrants where issued without passing through parliament.
- Only legislation passed formally though parliament is recognised internationally.
- Wearing a foreign courtesy flag indicates that one will obey the local laws.
- Those local laws do not recognise anything but the red for civilian craft.
- So wearing a courtesy flag and a blue in foreign waters is saying one will respect the local laws while actually breaking them.
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FlyingGoose
Well-Known Member
Seems pretty clear to me , and why is anyone arguing (oh its YBW
)As B Has said respect the Flag the country and the Etiquette, for some it is the only glue know holding a civilized people together in this madness of polarization .
In regards to the Isle of Man Flag and the HB attitude , seems a silly comparison to an actual Sovereign State ,and the attitude of the HB is the lazy attitude of someone that should take a little pride in his Job and his little Island.
Fly the Flag as courtesy requests and show some respect .
Just me 2p worth sorry old family tradition, and history of the Sea:encouragement:
andygc
Well-Known Member
Not true. Merchant Shipping Act 1995 Part I Section 2
2 British flag.
(1)The flag which every British ship is entitled to fly is the red ensign (without any defacement or modification) and, subject to subsections (2) and (3) below, no other colours.
(2)Subsection (1) above does not apply to Government ships.
(3)The following are also proper national colours, that is to say—
(a)any colours allowed to be worn in pursuance of a warrant from Her Majesty or from the Secretary of State;
(b)in the case of British ships registered in a relevant British possession, any colours consisting of the red ensign defaced or modified whose adoption for ships registered in that possession is authorised or confirmed by Her Majesty by Order in Council.
(4)Any Order under subsection (3)(b) above shall be laid before Parliament after being made.
But the Act does not, of course, attempt to interfere with the freedom of clubs holding a warrant to issue permits that require the club's burgee to be flown with the colours, nor does it discuss where to show courtesy flags.