Buoyancy Aid / Lifejacket Question.

[Jcorstorphine]

Food for thought on the Scottish News tonight following the drowning tragedy in the Gairloch. It was stated that whilst the children in the canoe were wearing buoyancy aids they did not prevent them drowning.

During the program an example of a child’s lifejacket with permanent buoyancy was shown which was a Crewsaver type. This had a fixed collar as opposed to the type we have for our grandchildren which have a collar but are more flexible. I have to say that the Cresaver type did not look comfortable and looked like the type you would don when a ship was sinking. In essence, it was in the form of a complete “U” with the collar being very much part of the lifejacket.

I do recall that we bought a buoyancy aid (with a collar) for our daughter when she was about 18 month old (32 years ago). When we tried it in the pool, she floated face down so that was binned and another one purchased.

My question is, just how effective are the type made today by the likes of Besco and Otalamax in terms of righting a child to float face up. These ones are stated to be 100N and comply with CE EN 395.

 

[maxi77]

I must admit that I always thought it was a retrograde step when they were allowed to sell bouyancy aids as lifejackets. They both have their uses and place in life but as the incident you refer to shows the less experienced are not properly equipped to make a sensible choice between the products on offer, going back to legaly labeling bouyancy aids as bouyancy aids and lifjackets as lifejackets is the only safe way forward

 

[NormanS]

Did you also see that the capsize was caused by one of the men standing up (in a canoe) to put mackerel in a box.

 

[awol]

Did you also see that the capsize was caused by one of the men standing up (in a canoe) to put mackerel in a box.

I heard that as well but knowing the kangaroo court nature of this forum decided not to post. The lifejacket v buoyancy aid for kids problem is a topic of value, ignorance needs to be dispelled and best practice needs to be disseminated. If the capsize was caused by the survivor as reported he is going to suffer incredibly and certainly doesn't need internet fora to add to his load.

Edit: my apologies. I didn't note that this was the PBO forum, not the viperous Scuttlebutt.

 

[NormanS]

I heard that as well but knowing the kangaroo court nature of this forum decided not to post. The lifejacket v buoyancy aid for kids problem is a topic of value, ignorance needs to be dispelled and best practice needs to be disseminated. If the capsize was caused by the survivor as reported he is going to suffer incredibly and certainly doesn't need internet fora to add to his load.

I entirely disagree. IMO, It is much more important to prevent accidents from happening in the first place, by publicising the cause, than debating whether some item of safety eqipment might have reduced the number of casualties.

 

[maxi77]

I entirely disagree. IMO, It is much more important to prevent accidents from happening in the first place, by publicising the cause, than debating whether some item of safety eqipment might have reduced the number of casualties.

I am pretty certain the cause of the accident itself will get plenty of publicity where it is needed and in general that is not here after the Fatal Accident Inquiry.

Also in reality accidents will happen what ever is discussed, if bouyancy aids were not labelled as lifejackets perhaps those who need real lifejackets may be helped to buy them. That covers a much wider public than those who mess around in canoes

 

[Jcorstorphine]

What to buy is the question.

I suspect that the types of buoyancy aids being worn by the children in the canoe were of the vest type, however I am concerned that the type we have even though they have buoyancy collars may not be good enough even though they conform to CE EN 395 they are rated as being Type 100N which has limited protection against unconsciousness.

My grandchildren are 3 and 8 and I was thinking of buying full Automatic Lifejackets but one piece of advice was to stick with the permanent buoyancy type as this would allow the kids to muck about at the beach in the inflatable where there is every possible chance they would be splashing about and set the trigger off.

Have done a bit more reading and come up with the following

Buoyancy aids Type 50 - EN 393 (ISO EN 12402/part 5)
Range of use:
For swimmers in waters where assistance is relative quick at hand. It is not a lifejacket! It is not safe against unconsciousness!
Available for persons as from 30 kg bodyweight. Minimum lift-buoyancy for an average adult is 50 N.

Buoyancy-aid Type 50 - protect as uplift agent against submerging. Protection against unconsciousness is not provided.
When conscious, a user may keep mouth and nose above water by respective balance maintaining body motion.
For better freedom of movement, some types of sport favour buoyancy-aids without collar.


Life Jacket Type 100 - EN 395 (ISO EN 12402 / part 4)
Range of use:
Suitable for children and adults, for inshore waters, and waters relatively protected and calm. Limited protection against unconsciousness provided (subject to type of clothing). Minimum lift-buoyancy for an average adult 100 N.

Life-jacket Typ 100 - firmly surrounds, and holds the body in correct position, so that mouth and nose are kept above water, even when the person is exhausted or unconscious.
The ability to roll the body into a unconscious safe position is limited. Ability to roll-over very much depends on clothing worn.


Life Jacket Type 150 - EN 396 (ISO EN 12402 / part 3)
Range of use
Suitable for children and adults, for coastal waters. Protection against unconsciousness is provided, when wearing light weather protective clothing.
Minimum lift-buoyancy for an average adult 150 N.

Life-jacket Typ 150 - firmly surrounds, and holds the body in correct position, so that mouth and nose are kept above water, even when the person is exhausted or unconscious.
It has ability to roll the face down body over in the water, into a face-up unconscious safe position.

So it would appear that I need to look for ones rated to 150 EN, the trouble is they may not be that comfortable. Any suggestion as to which ones may conform with the 150 rating but easy to wear.

 

[dunedin]

One key factor is ease of movement when wearing a buoyancy aid or life jacket. Not an expert on canoes, but life jacket collars on sailing dinghies can be dangerous as get jammed in the boom, hence buoyancy aids probably net safer for a balance of different risks.
Ditto noticed sea kayakers all using buoyancy aids this weekend, even well away from shore ( but they were in a group who could help each other if one capsized)

Any form of flotation device is secondary safety only. The big challenges with a Canadian style canoe travelling on its own is presumably the difficulty in righting, bailing and reboarding without assistance.

 

[l'escargot]

...So it would appear that I need to look for ones rated to 150 EN, the trouble is they may not be that comfortable. Any suggestion as to which ones may conform with the 150 rating but easy to wear.

Even though a lifejacket is designed to turn an unconscious casualty onto their back some will only do it under ideal or test conditions which still qualifies them for the rating - as with most things some reach the minimum standard and some exceed it and it isn't always easy to find the better ones.

 

[William_H]

Bouyancy aids

I am a great fan of the buoyancy vest. In fact they are worn by my KB crew as a choice. They do permit you to swim to help yourself back into he boat and are far more comfortable than the type with buoyancy behind the neck and bulky on the chest.Our club dinghy sailors always wear buoyancy vests where capsize and swimming is expected in every race and where you also are expected to get the boat righted again and get back in.
I fail to see how the children in the Scottish tragedy could drown in buoyancy vests. Unless the vest was not correctly fitting (Too big) and did not have a crutch strap. Or unless they were incapacitated with hyperthermia and just in the water for a long time. Or perhaps they had never been in the water before using the buoyancy vests.
Anyway perhaps an inquest will come up with answers. I hope I can get to hear what the truth is. olewill

 

[Capt Popeye]

The thorny subject of 'Buoyancy Aid' ver 'Lifejacket', which is 'safer' or 'better' i'd suggest will run and run!

My observations / comments are thus-

For ''Single handed' or sailing with an 'inexperienced' or a 'weak' crew (poss women and children ratio a bit high) t'is much better to wear a 'lifejacket' as you are probably not going to get help and assistance quickly! As you are virtually 'on your own'.

For 'sailing in company' or with an 'experienced crew' (like in a race or club cruise' then the 'advantages of 'mobility' with a Buoyancy Aid' might be a better option! As you are 'in good company'!

'Horses for Courses', so as to speak!

Just a thought! is there on the 'market' a 'Buoyancy Aid' that can be quickly adapted into a 'life jacket' by the addition of a 'head' flotation support?

'might save lives' ?

 

[budgester]

One key factor is ease of movement when wearing a buoyancy aid or life jacket. Not an expert on canoes, but life jacket collars on sailing dinghies can be dangerous as get jammed in the boom, hence buoyancy aids probably net safer for a balance of different risks.
Ditto noticed sea kayakers all using buoyancy aids this weekend, even well away from shore ( but they were in a group who could help each other if one capsized)

Most Sea Kayakers will either have a roll, or will have practised a variety self rescue techniques. The amount of built in floatation in a decent Sea Kayak is also pretty good. There will usually be a member of the group with a VHF as well.

Any form of flotation device is secondary safety only. The big challenges with a Canadian style canoe travelling on its own is presumably the difficulty in righting, bailing and reboarding without assistance.

If you've have practised it, righting, emptying and reboarding a canoe is actually pretty easy. The problem as usual comes from inexperienced people, not equipped correctly.

 

[maxi77]

I suspect that the types of buoyancy aids being worn by the children in the canoe were of the vest type, however I am concerned that the type we have even though they have buoyancy collars may not be good enough even though they conform to CE EN 395 they are rated as being Type 100N which has limited protection against unconsciousness.

My grandchildren are 3 and 8 and I was thinking of buying full Automatic Lifejackets but one piece of advice was to stick with the permanent buoyancy type as this would allow the kids to muck about at the beach in the inflatable where there is every possible chance they would be splashing about and set the trigger off.

Have done a bit more reading and come up with the following

Buoyancy aids Type 50 - EN 393 (ISO EN 12402/part 5)
Range of use:
For swimmers in waters where assistance is relative quick at hand. It is not a lifejacket! It is not safe against unconsciousness!
Available for persons as from 30 kg bodyweight. Minimum lift-buoyancy for an average adult is 50 N.

Buoyancy-aid Type 50 - protect as uplift agent against submerging. Protection against unconsciousness is not provided.
When conscious, a user may keep mouth and nose above water by respective balance maintaining body motion.
For better freedom of movement, some types of sport favour buoyancy-aids without collar.


Life Jacket Type 100 - EN 395 (ISO EN 12402 / part 4)
Range of use:
Suitable for children and adults, for inshore waters, and waters relatively protected and calm. Limited protection against unconsciousness provided (subject to type of clothing). Minimum lift-buoyancy for an average adult 100 N.

Life-jacket Typ 100 - firmly surrounds, and holds the body in correct position, so that mouth and nose are kept above water, even when the person is exhausted or unconscious.
The ability to roll the body into a unconscious safe position is limited. Ability to roll-over very much depends on clothing worn.


Life Jacket Type 150 - EN 396 (ISO EN 12402 / part 3)
Range of use
Suitable for children and adults, for coastal waters. Protection against unconsciousness is provided, when wearing light weather protective clothing.
Minimum lift-buoyancy for an average adult 150 N.

Life-jacket Typ 150 - firmly surrounds, and holds the body in correct position, so that mouth and nose are kept above water, even when the person is exhausted or unconscious.
It has ability to roll the face down body over in the water, into a face-up unconscious safe position.

So it would appear that I need to look for ones rated to 150 EN, the trouble is they may not be that comfortable. Any suggestion as to which ones may conform with the 150 rating but easy to wear.

I think you will find there are several 'favorites' Mrs Maxi and I have Secumar jackets and find them good for us, but I am sure you will get other recomendations. You will have to go above the budget ranges though some of them are not too bad

 

[Ruffles]

During the program an example of a child’s lifejacket with permanent buoyancy was shown which was a Crewsaver type. This had a fixed collar as opposed to the type we have for our grandchildren which have a collar but are more flexible. I have to say that the Cresaver type did not look comfortable and looked like the type you would don when a ship was sinking.

My kids thought they were ok. I gave my daughter the option of buying a 'grown up' auto one and she refused it saying it was too heavy.
They also give good protection to the head when falling backwards down the companionway!

I wouldn't use a lifejacket in a dinghy. Certainly not in a canoe. Buoyancy aids are more comfy anyway.
Were the kids in wet suits?

 

[alant]

My kids thought they were ok. I gave my daughter the option of buying a 'grown up' auto one and she refused it saying it was too heavy.
They also give good protection to the head when falling backwards down the companionway!

I wouldn't use a lifejacket in a dinghy. Certainly not in a canoe. Buoyancy aids are more comfy anyway.
Were the kids in wet suits?

1) The kids were young & small.

2) Bouyancy aids cannot keep heads out of the water, so next to useless for poor/non-swimmers. Bloody stupid, not to use lifejackets with kids in a canoe (its NOT a sailing dinghy, so collar should not have any problems).

3) Scottish loch waters are bloody cold, even in what excuses itself as high summer, so cold/hypothermia, will sap the strength of even the strongest swimmer, which was IMO a major contributory factor.

4) I would not allow my kids, when they were young, to get into my dinghy without foam filled lifejackets (sailing in the Solent) & would not consider taking my grandchildren with bouyancy aids.

 

[Searush]

(snip)
If you've have practised it, righting, emptying and reboarding a canoe is actually pretty easy. The problem as usual comes from inexperienced people, not equipped correctly.

That's interesting. I've practised self rescue in a kayak, by rolling it & by bailing out solo & with 1 & 2 other supporting boats & yes, it is quite eay to do once you know the right techniques.

However, I have always wondered about Canadians. I presume you right it & then use a bailer while still in the water & then I think you would need at least 2 too be able to reboard. I'm thinking one in the water steadying the boat while the other gets in from the opposite side. Is that correct? If not, what do you suggest?

But if the bailer isn't tied on, or the kids drift away, the paddles are not tied on, you haven't practised etc etc . . . the problems just escalate don't they?

 

[Martin_J]

Jcorstorphine...

Back to the original question of the permanent buoyancy lifejackets righting ability.

I know the permanent buoancy lifejackets as made by Crewsaver look very much like the buoyancy aids sold many years ago - but the big (and subtle) difference is that the flotation within one front side section is considerably more than the flotation inserted within the other front side section.

If you squeeze both sides you will find that the foam in one side is about twice the thickness of the other.

 

[lw395]

Haven't seen the detailed report of the incident, but it occurs to me that none of the 'PFD's are a complete solution to the problem of capsizing a canoe.
You either need a plan to right the boat, or some other means of getting ashore, or at the very least a means of summoning help.
Or you need to not capsize it in the first place, but it is always a possibility.

It's very tragic.
But on the other hand, my childhood was not entirely safe in the boaty department, and I wouldn't want to deny any young person the fun I had.
It's different when you have to take care of other people's kids.

 

[Capt Popeye]

From the report in the YM news - the canoe sank! - so perhaps, even more important to have a 'non sinking' canoe (craft, boat) in first place, otherwise a life jacket or buoyancy aid is pretty well of no help!

If its not poss to swim in a life jacket! how do you swim ahore or to safety?

 

[alant]

From the report in the YM news - the canoe sank! - so perhaps, even more important to have a 'non sinking' canoe (craft, boat) in first place, otherwise a life jacket or buoyancy aid is pretty well of no help!

If its not poss to swim in a life jacket! how do you swim ahore or to safety?

Either stay with your boat/group, or swim on your back.