"Build Quality" - What is it?

Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Portofino said:
Well put +1
I ,ve had and thrashed a smaller Sunseeker and did not break it over 9 y of ownership .
Done a lot of pontoon walking and more importantly yard snooping all over the yards in the SoF
It does depend really on how they are built .It cost more to hand layer up and wait long enought for it to cure if make a solid hull and cut and bond in strengtheners - ribs bulkheads etc internal "walls" for the cabins .-all glassed in .
Balsa cores are Cheap way of doing the hull .
Time in the plug cost €€€ in a production line etc .Solid bottoms cost a fortune and take time .
Modern Bav,s like Many others will cut corners in production ,least poss time in the plug prefab dropped in components -glued in -not built in and glassed in .
Result is a flexing hull that probably squeaks and gives rise to stress cracks on the surface as described by DOAN,s surveyor .You see false teak ,plywood veneers another builders cheapo trick , no edges as well so water seeps up and it delaminates
Walk arround any marina -see it with your eyes
Cleats with 4 screws may be bolted .Proper builders will have like a bollard that goes through the hull to a glassed in backing plate made of Alluminium and the surrounding area thickened up ,more glassingup by hand
The hull deck joint -another money saver ,just use self tappers every 30 cm or so infact straight through the thinest possible rubbing strip = flex +leak .
I hate to see exposed screws through the rubbing strip .
Spanner man is absolutely correct to raise the issue of hull form and slamming .
With flatter "shoebox" profile you get more lift ,so,s can make do with smaller money saving engines -agian a nod to cost cutting .
But a walk round a yard studying hull profiles and you can see ( well I figured it out ) a correlation between steepness of the Vee ,engine Hp and boat value .
Look at Riva ,s Itama,s Otam,s and some of earlier Sunseeker Preditor range like Pred 82 ,s
At boat shows I,ve had to walk across squeaky wooden cabin soles , find doors that are not square , look at exposed screw heads on the rubbing strip , cubaords with tiny dolls house hinges that pop open too easy - poor wiring ,poor access in the E room -seen it all and I have not been afraid to point it out to the smiley guy in the blue blazer .
I have no reason to dought DOAN,s post or challenge him to prove any of it it's obvious he,s had it surveyed by the ( good by the way ) language used , and is only copied it to the forum .

Another tell tale is the weight says it all Bulid quality wise if want a quick refference piont
The more Kg for a given length the better build as a rule of thumb .
Click to expand...


Bavaria hulls are hand laid from mat and bulkheads bonded in. Generally in composites, the shape of the moulding, resin ratio and fibre direction is more important than weight. Add to that, modern two pack adhesives in the right location will out perform fibreglassed in monocoques due to anything added post cure of the hull (such as bulkheads) rely on adhesive rather than chemical bonding between the GRP surfaces. Thats not to say that I would accept a boat without bonded in bulkheads, its more about making the point that composite engineering has come on a long way in the last ten years

Something has happened or failed on Doan's boat which is not the norm and I feel his pain and hope he finds an acceptable solution.

If you are ever around Swanwick, feel free to climb aboard and I will be more than happy to show you the good, the bad and the ugly of our Bavaria. Is it perfect, of course not, but its not unsafe! :)

I have worked on a number of very high value/perceived high quality composite products late at night, away from prying eyes, to fix some horrors which have been hidden away, unfortunately I don't think anyone gets it 100% perfect.
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

I am a great fan of Princess Yachts was in the factory seeing a Princess 95 being laid up, it is hand laid and the hull takes 6 weeks, but was surprised to notice the sides were cored with plastic foam sheet and were so flimsy they had to have a support frame until the deck moulding was fitted, I know they are trying to keep the weight down in the interests of economy (build and fuel burn) but I couldn't help wondering how stiff the hull would be when finished. The captain on the 95 we had ordered said that it was quite a bumpy and noisy ride in chop due to the flat sections carrying a long way forward and the helm being positioned forward meant it wasn't very comfortable if running into a head sea at higher speeds. Still at a fuel burn of 1000 lph @ 24 knts, meant it didn't often travel above 8-9knts @ 100 lph.
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

spannerman said:
I am a great fan of Princess Yachts was in the factory seeing a Princess 95 being laid up, it is hand laid and the hull takes 6 weeks, but was surprised to notice the sides were cored with plastic foam sheet and were so flimsy they had to have a support frame until the deck moulding was fitted.
Click to expand...

Yep, flat composite/GRP can be as wobbly as a jelly and needs shape to provide skeletal or geometric support. Core (balsa, coremat, fibre tow or honeycomb), can be used for a number of reasons such as bulk, strength, 3D shape, insulation or sacrificial crush areas.

Boat manufacturers tend to prefer composite engineered solutions because stringers and bulkheads reduce inner space and if added while the hull is cured but still green, can leave very obvious surface pull marks. Just look down the shinny hull of any big GRP boat and you may just see some lines running from deck to water where the bulkheads or stringers are aligned and bonded in.
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

BruceK said:
I think it's fairer to say you let yourself down. Of course he has an agenda. His boat is broke and he's not a happy fellow. Doesn't make your hissy fit justified or your rather eloquent character assassination. I showed it to the missus for evaluation . She reckons you're a bit highly strung and to avoid boxing day sales in future.
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:encouragement:
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Hang on a minute P4Paul -a pic paints a 1000 words
You said bulkheads are glassed in ? Above
This wood is just sat there or maybe screwed in -hardly bonded in ?
Therefore zero torsional flex resistance
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In this below if it was attached its now torn - no thick enough ?
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Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Portofino said:
Hang on a minute P4Paul -a pic paints a 1000 words
You said bulkheads are glassed in ? Above
This wood is just sat there or maybe screwed in -hardly bonded in ?
Therefore zero torsional flex resistance
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And to be fair, this is the problem with these kind of threads, we are just being given a small insight into the problem.
This isn't a case of pictures telling a 1000 words, but a case of only seeing the words provided which don't always make a sentence! :)

As for the pictures, they are not bulkheads.

Picture one - I think is of the void under the rear of the cabin steps

Picture two and three - looks like the inside of the aft bunk base in the aft cabin

What I suggest the surveyor is trying to indicate in the photos is the fact the monocoque grid has started to lift.

As I said before, I have no idea why it would do so as they used to be bonded with adhesive and then tabbed with
GRP. I have seen the flow coat crack away from the vanished woodwork which looks a whole lot worse than it actually is, but that happens on most makes, sizes and price points.

I hope Doan gets a quick and acceptable solution and can move on and start to enjoy an object that should be providing fantastic memories, not stress and worry.
 
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Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Ah -ok
In pic 1 the BH is # if that's what it is -the grey plastic above the tunnel ?

In my previous Sunseeker the seat bases in the saloon and bunk bases were all glassed in as were the up rights in the galley area
With the Itama it's the same + a little more it's built to RINA class standard with 3 separate water tight compartments .
Every thing when you start to look under bunks ,sofars etc is bonded in .
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Portofino said:
Ah -ok
In pic 1 the BH is # if that's what it is -the grey plastic above the tunnel ?
Click to expand...

you are looking at the monocoque grid inner moulding which forms the structural base for the furniture, tanks and engine beds

Portofino said:
In my previous Sunseeker the seat bases in the saloon and bunk bases were all glassed in as were the up rights in the galley area

With the Itama it's the same + a little more it's built to RINA class standard with 3 separate water tight compartments .
Every thing when you start to look under bunks ,sofars etc is bonded in .
Click to expand...

Yep, often the case, but if the varnish isn't removed and the timber scored and keyed, you end up with exactly what you see in the photos above.

I have worked on a number of high ticket items (don't ask, most are covered by NDA's!) to sort out creaking furniture/sagging ceilings/floors warping.
 
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Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Here is a link to 98 photographs that tell a much bigger story.

http://s161.photobucket.com/user/brucekennedy/library/Bavaria?sort=3&page=1

slideshow http://s161.photobucket.com/user/brucekennedy/slideshow/Bavaria


I'd have liked to post up a few, but it turns out there are too many, so I will leave that up to DOAN

DOAN, click on a photo, on the right you will see IMG, copy and paste the contents of the IMG box into the response here in the forum to attach the picture.
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

David Pascoe has as many detractors as he has accolytes. Which ever way you lean, one thing is for sure and he's controversial
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Outspoken he may be , would love to drag him out of retirement to give any proposed purchase a going over.
Where boats are concerned,a 20 year old boat is probably to new for all the revolutionary new built in design faults to surface.
Well done to all you buyers of cutting edge advanced technology boats... :)
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

oldgit said:
Outspoken he may be , would love to drag him out of retirement to give any proposed purchase a going over.
Where boats are concerned,a 20 year old boat is probably to new for all the revolutionary new built in design faults to surface.
Well done to all you buyers of cutting edge advanced technology boats... :)
Click to expand...

I think he makes a good read and I learnt quite a bit of prejudice from him. Read the stuff he has to say about new boats and their useless credit card captains when the sea gets a bit rough. Put's Top Sharpe et al to task.
 
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