"Build Quality" - What is it?

Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Well unless he surveyed it himself, his surveyor did him no favours then. Either way the fellow has a gripe and instead of damning him I wish him luck, hate it to be my boat whatever the circumstance. Good luck with yours too
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

The fellow has a gripe, but why should he be allowed to rubbish the reputation of the builder unchallenged all over the Internet? What about those people who own boats from that brand? Unsubstantiated rumour can damage reputation, which in turn might mean completely innocent owners find their boats devalued or unsaleable.

If he has a genuine fault then post fact supported by evidence.
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

I believe he has tried to, but being a newbie and all. See his thread. Anyway, after having my ass spanked publicly and labled a schizo nut job etc I'm retiring to sulk and reflect and leave you to your umbrage and outrage. Indeed, I shall be wary of wishing anyone good luck in the future. There is no mileage in it.



:p
 
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Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Whitelighter said:
and in less than perfect English.
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Be patient, J.
As a writer who graduated at Lincoln College said, "if the French were really intelligent, they'd speak English"... :p
TBH, he's better known for this quote than for anything else he wrote, but heyho! :D
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

MapisM said:
Be patient, J.
As a writer who graduated at Lincoln College said, "if the French were really intelligent, they'd speak English"... :p
TBH, he's better known for this quote than for anything else he wrote, but heyho! :D
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Yes OK I accept that is a cheap shot. But still its just a copy and paste job across multiple forums, with no supporting evidence.
 
Re: \"Build Quality\" - What is it?

Having crawled around the last 20 yrs in virtually every make of motorboat and sailboat found in northern Europe, and seen parts of boats most owners will never see or even know exist in their pride and joy. I have seen the good the bad and the ugly, build quality is not just the shiny bits but also doing the job properly even when its not seen, well finished glassfibre work instead of needle sharp strands waiting to impale your hands when groping behind a locker or under a floor.
I can't remember how many hundreds of new motor and sail boats I have commissioned for the local dealers, but I had the fun job of testing and signing off everything with a Volvo, Mercruiser or Mercury motor. I remember early Bavaria boats all had faults from crossed wiring on the bow prop to wipers not wired up, the layup was very solid but they used poor quality SS on hinges, screws, rails etc, we were always fitting new hinges to the engine room hatches with longer screws, and the engine rooms suffered from water ingress through the vents, they have improved but now it seems the layup has been pared down as I have seen a few needing repairs around the swim platform mounts, so still have some way to go to match the big names, as they are built on a conveyer system to a price, what appeals is that you get a heck of a lot of room for the money, but I wouldn't take one out to open sea.
Whereas Halberg-Rassey were considered the Mercedes of sailboats and it showed in the installation in the engine room and almost over engineered quality of the steering systems etc. And Windy and Nimbus speak for themselves when you see how they hold their used price.
Then I got to check all of the Princess's that came over the north sea, most had something that had come loose after a hard crossing, but there were very few faults from the factory, and quality components were used through out, although we had a series of motor failures on electric side windows due to rain water not draining out of the pocket properly, they were the most difficult thing I have ever replaced on a boat.
A lot of things that could be called poor build quality are either due to the use of cheap parts which aren't up to the job. i.e. fittings, pumps, and electrical components, or plain bad design which means that things fail through no fault of their own, usually from water ingress and associated corrosion, or lack of maintenance due to poorly designed access and ALL producers of boats and motors are guilty of that one at sometime or other.
Most marine mechanics with a few years behind them know the good and bad points on the major makes.
Still at the end of the day you usually get what you pay for.
 
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Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Whitelighter said:
Yes OK I accept that is a cheap shot. But still its just a copy and paste job across multiple forums, with no supporting evidence.
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Will you be apologising for your cheap shot?
I would rather read Tranona's reasoned analysis than your cheap shots and rants on the matter.What a way to welcome someone who obviously has a problem.
 
Re: \"Build Quality\" - What is it?

spannerman said:
as they are built on a conveyer system to a price, what appeals is that you get a heck of a lot of room for the money, but I wouldn't take one out to open sea.
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I am on Bavaria number 3 and have no concerns whats-so-ever taking my "poorly made, unseaworthly, cheap pile of plastic - but a great sociable space" boat out to open sea. :)

I also have spent way too many hours, on many makes, crawling around in the spaces most people don't even know exist so feel capable of making an educated judgement. Strangely enough, my insurance company seems to agree that Bavaria's are not huge risks and are more than happy to insure her at a sensible fee. :)


However, and in all seriousness, that is my pride and joy you are talking about. Personally, I wouldn't tell my neighbour what I really thought about his Saab, but everyone is different! :)
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Flynnbarr said:
Will you be apologising for your cheap shot?
I would rather read Tranona's reasoned analysis than your cheap shots and rants on the matter.What a way to welcome someone who obviously has a problem.
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I think it's fairer to say that the poster obviously has an agenda, though exactly what his problem is, or indeed how any problem may have been caused is far from clear.

Btw, you do realise that the bulk (everything before our Bavaria owning friend posted) is 7 years old?
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

I think it's fairer to say you let yourself down. Of course he has an agenda. His boat is broke and he's not a happy fellow. Doesn't make your hissy fit justified or your rather eloquent character assassination. I showed it to the missus for evaluation . She reckons you're a bit highly strung and to avoid boxing day sales in future.
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

BruceK said:
I think it's fairer to say you let yourself down. Of course he has an agenda. His boat is broke and he's not a happy fellow. Doesn't make your hissy fit justified or your rather eloquent character assassination. I showed it to the missus for evaluation . She reckons you're a bit highly strung and to avoid boxing day sales in future.
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Good for you

Bravo
 
Re: \"Build Quality\" - What is it?

ALL producers of boats and motors are guilty of that one
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Recently assisted a fellow boat member to berth his boat in a strong current with an arrival not helped by a strong wind and loss of an engine.
The stantions absorbed most of the impact.Was amazed to see the weedy little screws securing them to the toerail ,could not have been much more than 30mm long.
They did come out very cleanly though.
Boat was a 30 ft Seamaster.He only comment was that he will not be leaning on them in the future.
Older boats are not perfect.
 
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Re: \"Build Quality\" - What is it?

Sorry P4Pau lif you feel a bit insulted, I have nothing against Bavaria's personally, indeed the flybridge version is a very well thought out boat. And many years ago I commented that the early Bavaria's had excellent seaworthiness and drove very well in the rough stuff, not quite Windy but definitely up there. But the newer models have opted for volume over function IMHO, a friend bought a 34ft two years ago, its basically a shoe box with a blunt bow and it has a very shallow V hull and with a single D6 it took over 20 seconds to get on the plane with just one person onboard, and that was typical of most of the single installation models as I have commissioned every model in their range for the Dealer next door to us. I could have gone down and made a cup of tea. If it had a more normal deep V hull it would never get on the plane with single engine. Then the down side of the very flat underwater section was the ride, it slammed violently if you caught a wave under the chine especially in a turn, and if it got really choppy you have to slow right down. The early models from 10-12 yrs ago would punch through it. So that's why I don't think they would be much fun out to sea if it got rough, the fact you'd probably have to drop off the plane. Then his swim platform split and filled with seawater making it impossible to get on the plane with all that weight back there, it took a long time to get the dealer to replace it after several attempts to repair it. On the plus side they have one of the tidiest engine room installations with all the cabling mounted in Bavaria's unique cable trunking system, whereas US boats are the worst I have seen with often absolutely nowhere to stand in the engine room as hoses and wiring is screwed to the floor everywhere as if they take the shortest route between components to save money instead of routing things tidily around the walls.
I know other makes can be difficult to get decent support from also, but its not rocket science we have been building boats for most of mankind's history, I just feel that the cost saving is going a bit too far now and these sorts of problems shouldn't arise. I could mention several other well known makes but at the risk of boring the members or even worse insulting them as they own one I will say no more. I am sure other engineers like Mercman and Volvopaul also have a mental short list of well built and not so well built boats from their years of working below decks.
 
Re: \"Build Quality\" - What is it?

spannerman said:
Then I got to check all of the Princess's ... we had a series of motor failures on electric side windows due to rain water not draining out of the pocket properly, they were the most difficult thing I have ever replaced on a boat.
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Have to agree with that! Both of my side windows have seized, and I can't see any way of removing and replacing the mechanism. Did you find a clever method, or did you have to do major surgery on the surrounding cabinetry?
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

DOAN said:
Don't worry, I'll post pictures very soon in a dedicate thread about this boat.
Of course I go to court but that is my own problem.
All the forum are made to share the information and the return of experiences.
About my English, I known that it's not a parfect one because I am french, but I think it is comprehensible.
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I understood your post perfectly so maybe Whitelighter should give a bit of slack to a fellow boater.

Do not see why it was wrong of you to list all the details of your problems and failings with the boat as this is a MOTOR BOAT FORUM.

Instead of attacking DOAN offer some help and advice or at least ask for more detailed information

I prefer not to get involved with difference of opinions that turn into slanging matches, but sometimes people should think about the feeling of the person on the receiving end.

Why try to crush a thread just because you do not agree with it.

I own a Sunseeker Manhattan 60 that I love and think the build quality is better than most other makes, but if anyone else disagrees then thats their opinion.
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

Im not trying to crush the thread, or be mean to DOAN.

I'd just like to see some evidence before the reputation of any particular builder (or individual for that matter) is rubbished on a public forum without recourse.

I don't think there is a slagging match taking place here - just a discussion. Unless of course any difference of opinion constitutes such a match?
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

DougH said:
I understood your post perfectly so maybe Whitelighter should give a bit of slack to a fellow boater.

Do not see why it was wrong of you to list all the details of your problems and failings with the boat as this is a MOTOR BOAT FORUM.

Instead of attacking DOAN offer some help and advice or at least ask for more detailed information

I prefer not to get involved with difference of opinions that turn into slanging matches, but sometimes people should think about the feeling of the person on the receiving end.

Why try to crush a thread just because you do not agree with it.

I own a Sunseeker Manhattan 60 that I love and think the build quality is better than most other makes, but if anyone else disagrees then thats their opinion.
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Well put +1
I ,ve had and thrashed a smaller Sunseeker and did not break it over 9 y of ownership .
Done a lot of pontoon walking and more importantly yard snooping all over the yards in the SoF
It does depend really on how they are built .It cost more to hand layer up and wait long enought for it to cure if make a solid hull and cut and bond in strengtheners - ribs bulkheads etc internal "walls" for the cabins .-all glassed in .
Balsa cores are Cheap way of doing the hull .
Time in the plug cost €€€ in a production line etc .Solid bottoms cost a fortune and take time .
Modern Bav,s like Many others will cut corners in production ,least poss time in the plug prefab dropped in components -glued in -not built in and glassed in .
Result is a flexing hull that probably squeaks and gives rise to stress cracks on the surface as described by DOAN,s surveyor .You see false teak ,plywood veneers another builders cheapo trick , no edges as well so water seeps up and it delaminates
Walk arround any marina -see it with your eyes
Cleats with 4 screws may be bolted .Proper builders will have like a bollard that goes through the hull to a glassed in backing plate made of Alluminium and the surrounding area thickened up ,more glassingup by hand
The hull deck joint -another money saver ,just use self tappers every 30 cm or so infact straight through the thinest possible rubbing strip = flex +leak .
I hate to see exposed screws through the rubbing strip .
Spanner man is absolutely correct to raise the issue of hull form and slamming .
With flatter "shoebox" profile you get more lift ,so,s can make do with smaller money saving engines -agian a nod to cost cutting .
But a walk round a yard studying hull profiles and you can see ( well I figured it out ) a correlation between steepness of the Vee ,engine Hp and boat value .
Look at Riva ,s Itama,s Otam,s and some of earlier Sunseeker Preditor range like Pred 82 ,s
At boat shows I,ve had to walk across squeaky wooden cabin soles , find doors that are not square , look at exposed screw heads on the rubbing strip , cubaords with tiny dolls house hinges that pop open too easy - poor wiring ,poor access in the E room -seen it all and I have not been afraid to point it out to the smiley guy in the blue blazer .
I have no reason to dought DOAN,s post or challenge him to prove any of it it's obvious he,s had it surveyed by the ( good by the way ) language used , and is only copied it to the forum .

Another tell tale is the weight says it all Bulid quality wise if want a quick refference piont
The more Kg for a given length the better build as a rule of thumb .
 
Re: "Build Quality" - What is it?

I agree with everything you say re: build quality. I think the problem is there isn't the volume of buyers in the market place willing to pay for that level of build integrity to sustain more than a handful of small builders producing a small number of very expensive hulls.
 
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