Build quality modern yachts

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Shannow

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Talking about the ‘mass produced’ beneteaus/baverias

they look like lovely boats for the money - is lots of space and good value eg Oceanis 38.1
How does the build compare to some of the older boats these builders now seem to have priced out the market?

as a kid my parents had a southerly which was a basic boat but did the job

now the family cruisers have bags more space, separate showers etc in a boat only a little longer - but while look great new wondering what’s beneath the skin?

Am I better off buying a 10y old ‘better?’ boat for similar money

depreciation is an issue here we are not looking to drop a ton of money as will only use the boat maybe 3-4w a year
 
Welcome to the forums!

Build quality of major brands today is excellent, thanks to lots of computer-aided design and production techniques. Better than say 10 years ago, and much better than the olden days.

If you want a shiny new boat with lots of space and features, buy new. But it may depreciate faster than a 10 year old boat. Realistically, you'll "drop a ton of money" with almost any boat you buy - all part of the fun of boating!
 
One nice thing about the 10yo boats is that you can research any widespread issues and then (a) avoid that model (b) price it in or (c) ensure a particular yacht either doesn't have the issue, or has it rectified. For example, there was an ugly spate 10-20 years ago of using brass skin fittings and ball valves - even with some of the "good" boatbuilders. Totally unacceptable (but totally legal) and those boats are still around, but you can identify and manage the issue.

Some issues only arise with use e.g. some of the mass-produced brands around the same age had issues with their mast heel collapsing; an expensive repair, but one that may well have been done well. But if you looked at a brand new one, or a lightly-used one, you would never know.

For me personally, as with a car, I wouldn't buy anything new. Partly this is because I don't think you really get sufficient assurance of reliability / quality to justify the price. Even if it's in warranty - it's a pain in the neck, just look at the woes some people (admittedly a smallish number) have with their dealers/builders.

Moving aside from the question, I think some modern boats are a bit too much "house" and not enough "sailing yacht" down below. I would say the early 2000s yachts by Dufour and Jeanneau are the right tradeoff for spacious but seamanlike interiors. But that's my opinion, and more easily visible than dodgy skin fittings and mast heels.
 
Shannow said:
Depreciation is an issue here we are not looking to drop a ton of money as will only use the boat maybe 3-4w a year
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While I understand the pride of ownership, but if you don't wish to, "drop a ton of money", which if you buy you surly will, then it might not be a good idea to buy in the first place.

With only 3-4 weeks use a year it might be better to charter a boat to your liking in different sailing areas, have a wonderful time, without the cost of keeping a boat sitting unused only to take a hit when you sell.

By chartering you will also get a much better idea of what sort and size of boat you like and the type of sailing you enjoy, probable at less cost to you.
Fair winds.
 
Wot Lucy said ⬆.

I reckon chartering is cheaper if you use it less than a month a year. Very roughly. When I bought mine ten years ago Dad told me this emphatically as much as to avoid the hassle of ownership as well as for reasons of cost.
 
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Zing said:
Wot Lucy said ⬆.

I reckon chartering is cheaper if you use it less than a month a year. Very roughly. When I bought mine ten years ago Dad told me this emphatically as much as to avoid the hassle of ownership as well as for reasons of cost.
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I agree re the cost. But chartering can be very limiting on the imagination. The value of owning a boat is all those improvement schemes you dream up over Winter and the few you actually do between sailing. And it’s the idea of your travels being only limited by your time, not the charter area allowed.
 
Owning a boat is a hobby to which you will devote considerable time and money - you can own a boat on practically any budget, but everything scales to consume more of your resources than you expect.

So if your sailing is just for a holiday every year, or it's a toss-up between a charter or a hotel stay, or renting a motorhome, then owning a boat is not for you - you need to have a passion for boats to justify owning one, it is not logical or financially justifiable.

So what do you get from owning a boat? ...

Spontaneous weekends away and holidays.
Everything always there where you left it.
A better spec compared to your average charter boat.
You don't get associated with incompetent charter skippers crunching gelcoat and dragging anchors.
You don't waste 2 days of every trip waiting for the boat to be ready or cleaning/refuelling for hand back.
You learn to handle your own boat like an expert and learn all its vices and virtues.
Your inventory consists of what you want and need, not what a charter company considers to be the bare minimum to fulfil their legal requirements.
The tender is a decent size, with a decent outboard.
The chart table is full of things you put there by choice.

.. and finally, the feeling of satisfaction that not only were you responsible for getting from A to B safely, but you were also responsible for the craft that got you there.
 
Buying a boat is a mug's game, but we mugs are numbered in many thousands. I'm not sure that the money I spent on boats while I was working was much more than I would have spent taking the family on holidays, and I had the weekends as well.

My impression of new boats is that they are a mixture of improved technology, and to some extent design, but with a tendency towards lightness and cutting corners. My HR, although more expensive, is still a mass-built boat. Later models than my 2000 boat show a number of areas where costs have been cut. Interiors are plainer, and without the louvred doors they used to be known for, while some of the fittings and rig are more basic. I think a similar change is present in the big brands, though the difference for most sailors will be dominated by the differences in design.
 
Thanks for all the replies really helpful , I’m ok with losing money boating doesn’t have a rep as being a cheap hobby just want to keep it sensible

I really do value the ownership side and the ability to just head down as hoc is high so def want a boat just figuring out the what/how?
 
I don't think going back 10 years makes really that much difference. It's 20 years since most mass market builder stopped bolting slotted alloy toerails down, now they are non-slotted so you can't stress them by attaching sheet or preventer blocks and they are held by self-tappers and Sikaflex or not there at all. Interior joinery is getting steadily more square (cheap) edged, a trend accelerating fast.

There has been a steady reduction in some aspects of "quality" in production boats since the 1970s/80s: less and less quality joinery and finishing, but this has been accompanied by a steady increase in "engineering" quality - boats designed with hull and rig and keel stresses properly calculated rather than guessed. Give me a 1990s/90s make (Moody/Westerly etc) and I can quite often tell you where to look in many models for stress cracks in the structure or evidence of repairs to sort out (mostly but not all minor) design or material failings.

I was on board a 60 year old GRP boat this week: hull massively thickly laminated, frames to stiffen the already very solid hull, lots of clearly hand-built mahogany interior joinery by a Dutch yard. Then on board a very modern Bavaria of similar size. The hull thickness was probably only 25% of the 1960 boat, and the joinery was "IKEA's best". The Bavaria might not be still sailing in 2080 but for many owners for the next 20-30+ years at least might be the better boat. I expect the 1960 one to be a prized classic in 2080 - it's half way there already and a lot prettier than the Bavaria.
 
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jwilson said:
Give me a 1990s/90s make (Moody/Westerly etc) and I can qite often tell you where to look in many models for stress cracks in the structure or evidence of repairs to sort out (mostly but not all minor) design or material failings.
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Any advice for a Westerly Storm 33? I'm going to have a look at one this weekend. Already aware of headlining issues...
 
Very interesting post by jwilson. I would add that material science has improved hugely in the last 10 to 20 years as well as engineering through CAD. Hull shapes are better for most people's use, materials better, design better, electronics better.

My boat is a 90s boat because I don't want to spend a huge sum on sailing. If I did I think I would get something like a new sun odyssey 34 with new electronics. However there's a big difference between spending 10k and selling for 9k a fe years later to spending 140k and selling for 90k a few years later.
 
jwilson said:
I don't think going back 10 years makes really that much difference. It's 20 years since most mass market builder stopped bolting slotted alloy toerails down, now they are non-slotted so you can't stress them by attaching sheet or preventer blocks and are they are held by self-tappers and Sikaflex or or not there at all. Interior joinery is getting steadily more square (cheap) edged, a trend accelerating fast.

There has been a steady reduction in some aspects of "quality" in production boats since the 1970s/80s: less and less quality joinery and finishing, but this has been accompanied by a steady increase in "engineering" quality - boats designed with hull and rig and keel stresses properly calculated rather than guessed. Give me a 1990s/90s make (Moody/Westerly etc) and I can qite often tell you where to look in many models for stress cracks in the structure or evidence of repairs to sort out (mostly but not all minor) design or material failings.

I was on board a 60 year old GRP boat this week: hull massively thickly laminated, frames to stiffen the already very solid hull, lots of clearly hand-built mahogany interior joinery by a Dutch yard. Then on board a very modern Bavaria of similar size. The hull thickness was probably only 25% of the 1960 boat, and the joinery was "IKEA's best". The Bavaria might not be still sailing in 2080 but for many owners for the next 20-30+ years at least might be the better boat. I expect the 1960 one to be a prized classic in 2080 - it's half way there already and a lot prettier than the Bavaria.
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I would agree with that. I sail an 80s boat and had very little experience of modern ones until a 10 day charter of a Sunsail 38 (Janneau 389?). My impression was that the layup was very solid including locker lids for example. The hardware was obviously much like any boat but the IKEA interior is all about dramatically reducing labour time. The main durability issues seemed to be plastic tape on cabinet ends which was already coming off on a 2/3 year old boat and very roughly finished untreated MDF in hidden areas. I guess these could be fixed. I have heard that some modern builders don’t use DTZ seacocks but brass with a very short lifespan; I don’t know if this is true but that would worry me a lot more than interior joinery deficiencies
 
The brass plumbing fittings below the waterline was always an outrage but I see Beneteau are now offering some models with bronze.

Did you really spot MDF eddystone? We have been assured it does exist on the modern boat. I agree that many new boat interiors are dismal but some say they like them, so there we go.

.
 
doug748 said:
The brass plumbing fittings below the waterline was always an outrage but I see Beneteau are now offering some models with bronze.

Did you really spot MDF eddystone? We have been assured it does exist on the modern boat. I agree that many new boat interiors are dismal but some say they like them, so there we go.

.
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Although possibly not the first, I think that Dehler set the style for non-traditional interiors, judging by a 34 that I went on many years ago. I thought it looked practical and not unattractive at the time, but clearly a 'young man's boat'. There has been a vogue for interiors becoming much lighter than of yore. I'm not sure than I like this particularly. My interior is mahogany, and looks cosy rather than gloomy to me, though some of the Bavarias of twenty odd years ago were very dark.

I would have thought that MDF was too heavy for use in a boat. Maybe it was some other form of composition.
 
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