barca nova
Well-Known Member
Thinking of changing my boat for one of the above and would be interested to hear readers opinions and experience.
build quality - Elan 333 and Dufour 34 Performace
- Thread starter barca nova
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flaming
Well-Known Member
I have limited direct experience with the exact models in question, but my Dad had a Dufour 40 of the same vintage that I did a lot of miles in, and I helmed an Elan 37 on the race track for about 10 years, so know a little about the brands' general quality / approach.
The main thing to say is that both the Dufour and Elan were absolutely fine. Absolutely nothing I saw in either of those boats would rule out purchasing another one from the same brand and era. Quite the reverse I'd recommend both brands as really good examples of that generation of fast cruiser racers. The Elan is a bit quicker, the Dufour probably slightly more comfortable.
Channel Sailor
Well-Known Member
Between those two models my vote would be for the Elan 333.
mrming
Well-Known Member
Both also have great IRC ratings if you want to do any racing.
Lucky Duck
Well-Known Member
Not IRC but I was surprised to see the Elan owing time to a modern Dehler 38 in this year’s RTIR
sawduster
Well-Known Member
Have raced on both and they're quite similar. The Elan is an older design, i think going in to out of production as the Dufour cam in to production 2004ish. Didn't notice any differences with build quality, it's probably more down to how a 20 year old boat has been handled and upgraded by previous owners as many will have tired deck fittings, rigs and engines now.
Jib winch placement better on the Elan but main traveler better on the Dufour. The Dufour is a quite a heavy boat for the size and the Elan will be slightly faster, more so in light winds. Both comfy for cruising as the inside is basically the same setup, though they get cosy with anything more than four.
There are a few threads on here and sailing anarchy giving more detail.
Jib winch placement better on the Elan but main traveler better on the Dufour. The Dufour is a quite a heavy boat for the size and the Elan will be slightly faster, more so in light winds. Both comfy for cruising as the inside is basically the same setup, though they get cosy with anything more than four.
There are a few threads on here and sailing anarchy giving more detail.
barca nova
Well-Known Member
Thank you for the replies. The two boats show the sort of boat and price level I am looking at. Are there any other suggestions? I am not a serious racer but I do like a boat that sails well and has a well designed cockpit with a wheel.
Frogmogman
Well-Known Member
True. Maybe worth also looking at the Elan 31, which is slightly more modern than the 333, being introduced about the time that the 333 was being phased out. OK, It’s a bit smaller and I think they are all tiller steered rather than wheel, but they are quick boats too.
sawduster
Well-Known Member
Others might be the Sun Odyssey 35, 33i or 36i. Hanse 320. Westerly Ocean range, though they're a bit older and I'm never sure quite which one is which as the names are similar. Some nice Dehlers but again at that price likely to be a bit older.
Channel Sailor
Well-Known Member
Older Dufour 36 Classic appears to be a good strong popular yacht. The Classic 35 is maybe lighter, faster and seems to age well. Smaller cockpit though. The Jeanneau 36i Performance version I think is quite rare to market, maybe not as tough as the Dufour 36. Maxi 940, if you can find one, has an aft cabin though smaller cockpit. Maxi 1050 I hear good things about, but like many of this era it maybe not have a wide aft end so accommodation is limited. If you want a little more speed, probably more space inside (less furniture and wide rear ends), very likely much bigger budget and lots of fun there is the Sunfast range starting from the Sunfast 35 vintage onwards. Beneteau probably do something racy and similar but likely more lively. Bavaria probably do something strong and fast enough from the late 1990s at 35ft, possibly with a deep keel.
dunedin
Well-Known Member
The OP suggested a couple of boats that are pleasantly sporty but with decent accommodation.
A lot of the later suggestions are rathe different - more accommodation / cruise focused without the same performance / sportiness.
A lot of the later suggestions are rathe different - more accommodation / cruise focused without the same performance / sportiness.
mrming
Well-Known Member
At the older end of the market: MG335, Etap 32s, Beneteau First 31.7, Jeanneau Sun Fast 32i, Seaquest SJ320.
A bit newer or pricier: X-332, X-34, Dehler 34 (Judel/Vrolijk), Beneteau First 34.7, Hanse 345, J/97.
A bit newer or pricier: X-332, X-34, Dehler 34 (Judel/Vrolijk), Beneteau First 34.7, Hanse 345, J/97.
PeterR
Well-Known Member
I have owned a Dufour 34 since 2008 when I bought her new. At the time I also looked at the Elan 333, nice boat but they had recently been superseded by the Elan 340 which I was not keen on.
The Elan and the Dufour have very similar dimensions and very similar ratings. As some have said the Dufour is a bit heavier. According to the manufacturer's brochures when the boats were new the Dufour was 1000 kg heavier at 5700kg as opposed to the Elans 4700Kg. However, it is not at all clear what either boat actually weighs. The original Dufour brochure said the D34 was 4700kg. A year later that was revised to 5700kg but it referred to the standard boat and that boat had a shorter heavier keel. The ORC weights for Dufour 34s indicate dry weights of between 5,500 and 5,750 kg, The certificates for Elans are usually about 5,200 to 5,350 kg so the Elan is a bit lighter but nowhere near as much as it appears from reading brochures. The difference is even more complicated because you can remove the large transom moulding of the D34 and it was possible to buy a performance plus version where more attention was paid to weight. Later in its life a D34e was produced with different keel options. The original standard keel was a heavy 1.5m steel one but very few people bought that. Most people went for the £1000 option of a 1.94 metre lead keel with a flair. However lead became more expensive and that keel became a £12,000 option. Because of that a performance option was offered with a lighter thinner steel keel with a torpedo bulb. I assume it had the same righting moment as the lead one as the rig stayed the same. The brochures claim that version weighs 5350 kg. That is also the weight the RYA tells me my boat weighs for YTC purposes. I know it cannot be true but try telling the RYA that!
The D34 was designed as a boat whose principal market was Mediterranean based. With that in mind the hull was designed with a flying bow and a steep rise in the after hull to promote clean water separation in wind speeds up to about 12 knots. It does do that but at the price of making the hull slower to get up onto a surf in heavier winds and big seas. Having said that the D34 is not exactly a sluggard in heavy winds. One very windy night in the Irish Sea we spent half the night surfng at between 15 to 17 knots and averaged 11.5 knots for 4 hours.
The boat was also designed with half an eye on the charter market. The standard D34 accommodation is pretty much identical in layout to the Elan. However a charter version had twin aft cabins and the toilet was moved forward reducing the size of the forecabin. To provide light and ventilation in this forward loo two small forward hatches were provided rather than the normal single large hatch. The forward hatches remained small even in the two cabin version. Unless you need 3 cabins or shallow draft I would advise you to steer clear of this configuration.
The other major performance option was a taller mast than standard. It was only about 0.6 metres taller than the standard mast and came with a slightly longer boom. This provided a mainsail about 3.5sqm metres bigger than standard; the foretriangle remained the same. This option came without any sails but had dyform standing rigging, dynema running rigging and a lot more tweaks for controlling sail shape. In this configuration the D34 had pretty much identical sail areas to the Elan 333.
Therefore in performance terms there is little to choose between the D34 performance and the Elan 333. Which is quicker is more of a question of how good the sails are, how clean the crew keep the hull bottom and how good the crew are.
If you are not that worried about performance I would still avoid the shallow draft keel but the shorter mast may not be so much of an issue.
I have the full fat performance version but no longer really race and as most of my sailing is short handed and in rivers I tend to only use a blade 105% headsail. Within the confines of the rivers I find that is actually faster than using a full overlapping 135% genoa. In light winds at sea in a chop there is more of a loss but I prefer to get round that by using a cruising Code zero type sail than digging out the genoa. I have seen at least a couple of Elan owners who have come to the same conclusion. Going directly upwind I just spend my time powering up the mainsail instead of trying to depower it as I do with the genoa up. The positioning of the main winches towards the rear of the cockpit is one of those marmite choices. You either hate it or love it. Sailing shorthanded the rearward positioning is ideal for the helmsman to both steer and trim. It is not good if you are sailing fully crewed. Keen owners got round this by fitting a second pair of winches further forward where most boats have them. In the D34e version the winches were moved to the conventional forward position.
From a cruising point of view I think the D34 has the edge. It has more headroom down below and the boom is higher allowing for a taller sprayhood. Admittedly, the lower topsides give the Elan a sleeker look. The D34 also has a second water tank right forward giving much greater tankage then the Elan.
Both boats are good examples of their generation. I would not buy either now if I wanted to race seriously but they both provide better performance then run of the mill boats from the big manufacturers up to, and in many cases including, their 40 foot options.
The Elan and the Dufour have very similar dimensions and very similar ratings. As some have said the Dufour is a bit heavier. According to the manufacturer's brochures when the boats were new the Dufour was 1000 kg heavier at 5700kg as opposed to the Elans 4700Kg. However, it is not at all clear what either boat actually weighs. The original Dufour brochure said the D34 was 4700kg. A year later that was revised to 5700kg but it referred to the standard boat and that boat had a shorter heavier keel. The ORC weights for Dufour 34s indicate dry weights of between 5,500 and 5,750 kg, The certificates for Elans are usually about 5,200 to 5,350 kg so the Elan is a bit lighter but nowhere near as much as it appears from reading brochures. The difference is even more complicated because you can remove the large transom moulding of the D34 and it was possible to buy a performance plus version where more attention was paid to weight. Later in its life a D34e was produced with different keel options. The original standard keel was a heavy 1.5m steel one but very few people bought that. Most people went for the £1000 option of a 1.94 metre lead keel with a flair. However lead became more expensive and that keel became a £12,000 option. Because of that a performance option was offered with a lighter thinner steel keel with a torpedo bulb. I assume it had the same righting moment as the lead one as the rig stayed the same. The brochures claim that version weighs 5350 kg. That is also the weight the RYA tells me my boat weighs for YTC purposes. I know it cannot be true but try telling the RYA that!
The D34 was designed as a boat whose principal market was Mediterranean based. With that in mind the hull was designed with a flying bow and a steep rise in the after hull to promote clean water separation in wind speeds up to about 12 knots. It does do that but at the price of making the hull slower to get up onto a surf in heavier winds and big seas. Having said that the D34 is not exactly a sluggard in heavy winds. One very windy night in the Irish Sea we spent half the night surfng at between 15 to 17 knots and averaged 11.5 knots for 4 hours.
The boat was also designed with half an eye on the charter market. The standard D34 accommodation is pretty much identical in layout to the Elan. However a charter version had twin aft cabins and the toilet was moved forward reducing the size of the forecabin. To provide light and ventilation in this forward loo two small forward hatches were provided rather than the normal single large hatch. The forward hatches remained small even in the two cabin version. Unless you need 3 cabins or shallow draft I would advise you to steer clear of this configuration.
The other major performance option was a taller mast than standard. It was only about 0.6 metres taller than the standard mast and came with a slightly longer boom. This provided a mainsail about 3.5sqm metres bigger than standard; the foretriangle remained the same. This option came without any sails but had dyform standing rigging, dynema running rigging and a lot more tweaks for controlling sail shape. In this configuration the D34 had pretty much identical sail areas to the Elan 333.
Therefore in performance terms there is little to choose between the D34 performance and the Elan 333. Which is quicker is more of a question of how good the sails are, how clean the crew keep the hull bottom and how good the crew are.
If you are not that worried about performance I would still avoid the shallow draft keel but the shorter mast may not be so much of an issue.
I have the full fat performance version but no longer really race and as most of my sailing is short handed and in rivers I tend to only use a blade 105% headsail. Within the confines of the rivers I find that is actually faster than using a full overlapping 135% genoa. In light winds at sea in a chop there is more of a loss but I prefer to get round that by using a cruising Code zero type sail than digging out the genoa. I have seen at least a couple of Elan owners who have come to the same conclusion. Going directly upwind I just spend my time powering up the mainsail instead of trying to depower it as I do with the genoa up. The positioning of the main winches towards the rear of the cockpit is one of those marmite choices. You either hate it or love it. Sailing shorthanded the rearward positioning is ideal for the helmsman to both steer and trim. It is not good if you are sailing fully crewed. Keen owners got round this by fitting a second pair of winches further forward where most boats have them. In the D34e version the winches were moved to the conventional forward position.
From a cruising point of view I think the D34 has the edge. It has more headroom down below and the boom is higher allowing for a taller sprayhood. Admittedly, the lower topsides give the Elan a sleeker look. The D34 also has a second water tank right forward giving much greater tankage then the Elan.
Both boats are good examples of their generation. I would not buy either now if I wanted to race seriously but they both provide better performance then run of the mill boats from the big manufacturers up to, and in many cases including, their 40 foot options.
