Build or finish your own yacht?

[Poignard]

Years ago I met a charming elderly couple in Bembridge who had a 30' Wanderer class yacht (like Eric & Susan Hiscock's 'Wanderer III) called 'Walrus'. He had built the boat, including the sails, and I think he told me it took him 8 years. He had made a fine job of it.

Here she is:

http://www.thinkyachts.com/listing1581/wanderer-30-yacht/

 

[Ex-SolentBoy]

Are you also looking at what was called the 'sailaway'. able to be sailed but needed finishing below ?

Yes, that is a possibility as well. The vast majority of labour cost is in the interior fit-out. Having said that, in order to make it sailable that assumes quite a lot of interior work e.g. bulkheads.

 

[Tranona]

Yes, that is a possibility as well. The vast majority of labour cost is in the interior fit-out. Having said that, in order to make it sailable that assumes quite a lot of interior work e.g. bulkheads.

"Sailaway" used to be very popular. If you look back at the time when kits and selfbuild were popular, builders offered a whole range of possibilities. Colvic, for example, not only had a range of different designs, but each was available at all stages from bare mouldings to complete boats. Biggest part of the business, and what made it work, was selling packages of components at a discount from retail to individual builders. There were also plenty of suppliers willing to deal with home builders, in addition to commercial builders.

These conditions simply no longer exist as there is virtually no sailing yacht building of any size left in the UK to support such an infrastructure. So each build is virtually one off. While a sailaway might make some sense in terms of saving the final finish labour, a builder would not be in a position to offer a CE mark for a part complete boat unless there is a mechanism for finally inspecting the finished boat. Crabbers are trying this now on the smaller boats, but you have to use their packs to get the CE mark.

Inevitably somebody wanting to build, say, a 45 footer for themselves will want to incorporate some of their own ideas, so will need to comply with the RCD and get their own CE mark. Builders are set up to make money out of selling the finished product, not just selling mouldings, so their is little incentive for them to compromise their brand by having other people complete their boats.

It is possible to get a completely custom built boat for a similar cost to a semi production high class boat, but the downside is that the resale value of one offs is very unpredictable, so buyers in this market tend to go for the security of a well known brand with a strong secondhand market - hence the popularity of the Scandinavian boats.

 

[stevebrassett]

British Hunter are advertising kits again.

 

[Bosun Higgs]

I believe that a home build yacht would be probably better built (by a competant person) than one off a production line built by cheap labour.

Thats not what most surveyors will tell you.

 

[Kelpie]

"Sailaway" used to be very popular. If you look back at the time when kits and selfbuild were popular, builders offered a whole range of possibilities. Colvic, for example, not only had a range of different designs, but each was available at all stages from bare mouldings to complete boats. Biggest part of the business, and what made it work, was selling packages of components at a discount from retail to individual builders. There were also plenty of suppliers willing to deal with home builders, in addition to commercial builders.

These conditions simply no longer exist as there is virtually no sailing yacht building of any size left in the UK to support such an infrastructure. So each build is virtually one off. While a sailaway might make some sense in terms of saving the final finish labour, a builder would not be in a position to offer a CE mark for a part complete boat unless there is a mechanism for finally inspecting the finished boat. Crabbers are trying this now on the smaller boats, but you have to use their packs to get the CE mark.

Inevitably somebody wanting to build, say, a 45 footer for themselves will want to incorporate some of their own ideas, so will need to comply with the RCD and get their own CE mark. Builders are set up to make money out of selling the finished product, not just selling mouldings, so their is little incentive for them to compromise their brand by having other people complete their boats.

It is possible to get a completely custom built boat for a similar cost to a semi production high class boat, but the downside is that the resale value of one offs is very unpredictable, so buyers in this market tend to go for the security of a well known brand with a strong secondhand market - hence the popularity of the Scandinavian boats.

If a yacht is in 'sailaway' condition, what more do the RCD people need to know? I thought the RCD was about the inherent soundness of the structure and design. How you arrange your lockers and quarter berths shouldn't have any bearing on that... should it?

 

[aitchem]

Thats not what most surveyors will tell you.

Them what can, DO, them what can't, teach, or become surveyors.

 

[greenalien]

There is an old adage;

" Fools build boats for wise men to sail. "

That makes me a wise fool, then - I built my own boat between 1983 and 1986 and am still happily sailing her to this day. I was working full-time for most of this period, doing the boatbuilding at weekends and in the evening. The project was hard work, and not all my own - I employed an experienced ship's carpenter to do the main part of the interior woodwork, which was money well spent, as not only did I get a professionally done job, but I also learned a lot from him, which enabled me to complete the job to the same standard. A recent survey was passed with flying colours, with the surveyor commenting favourably on the quality and solidity of the build.
Apart from the satisfaction of doing the job, because I know every detail of the construction, I have always subsequently done my own maintenance with few problems. I was also able to keep a tight rein on the cashflow as the project proceeded and was able to avoid borrowing any money. I was also able to negotiate a very favourable price on the hull and engine, and was lucky in finding a building space near the water that wasn't extortionate.
If you enjoy seeing the product of your own efforts, it can be a very rewarding thing to do; however, it certainly isn't for everyone.

 

[Deleted member 36384]

Wharram Catamarans are a niche market where the majority are home built and still relatively popular.

There have been some old hulls around at very good prices which could make refurbishment / rebuild projects worthwhile but its a big risk if it's being done to save money.

As others have said a good hull and finished boat can be bought at favourable prices today. As a sailor involved in refitting an older boat I agree that the price of materials is extortionate. However, it pays to shop around; as always there are bargains around.

The point is a hull could be fitted out at a reasonable cost but only if one is ruthless in searching for materials at best cost and is prepared to use second hand parts. To much hassle in my opinion.

I sail my boat, but there is always something in a state of construction. It gets a bit wearing to be honest.

 

[Tranona]

If a yacht is in 'sailaway' condition, what more do the RCD people need to know? I thought the RCD was about the inherent soundness of the structure and design. How you arrange your lockers and quarter berths shouldn't have any bearing on that... should it?

Not sure what you mean by "RCD" people. The RCD sets down the standards for the boat and its equipment, plus the documentation and records of its construction, plus the documentation including handbooks etc of all the quipment that goes into it. This is approved by a certifying body and covers the design and construction of the boat. The Chief executive certifies that each individual boat complies with the approved design. Rather difficult to do if the builder does not complete the boat, so the few that do offer uncomplete boats will also need a mechanism for checking that the boat is finished correctly. This can of course be done post construction by an independent such as CE Proof or the RYA, but is just more work, hassle and cost. Production builders have control over the whole process and the additional cost of compliance on series built boats is minimal.

Of course you can always take advantage of the concession that exempts a home built boat if it is kept by the original builder for 5 years before being sold. However, a boat without a CE mark and home completed is almost inevitably less desirable in the market, so the potential lower value may offset any initial saving (if there is any) in DIY.

 

[PCUK]

If you're going to build a boat it must be to keep it for a few years so five isn't long. Expect to save 50% or more on new price by using boat jumbles for the majority of equipment. Over a period of a couple of years everything you need eventually turns up for sale at the right price.
I have never made a loss on a home built boat (apart from the labour which is not included as it is part of the pleasure!)

 

[Tranona]

If you're going to build a boat it must be to keep it for a few years so five isn't long. Expect to save 50% or more on new price by using boat jumbles for the majority of equipment. Over a period of a couple of years everything you need eventually turns up for sale at the right price.
I have never made a loss on a home built boat (apart from the labour which is not included as it is part of the pleasure!)

The OP was suggesting building a Bowman, which is likely to be in the £200-250k price bracket and doubt much of the gear for that would be available at boat jumbles etc.

Of course, more modest boats may offer the opportunity for greater savings.

 

[oceanpilgrim]

just for a change af tack,why not by a salvage job ?,mine was £5700 for a 42 footer...
ok so it had sunk but it took me two years of work to strip out and refit,if you have the time it is possable

 

[SHUG]

I think times have changed too much, RCD rears its ugly head, in todays society I doubt it's acceptable to boat build in the garden and the type of people who own Bowmans are unlikely to want a DIY version.

Does anybody know the detailed RCD regarding home completed boats.......it could be a show stopper.

PS Just spotted TRANONA's comments. Does this mean that it doesn't matter if it is a well established hull you would still have to get the completed boat measured and tested. Presumably a costly exercise. It does sound like a show stopper!!!

 

[prv]

Does anybody know the detailed RCD regarding home completed boats.......it could be a show stopper.

Only if you're building it to sell immediately. If you hang onto it for five years (which I assume any true homebuilder would want to) then RCD is not required.

Pete

 

[Tranona]

Does anybody know the detailed RCD regarding home completed boats.......it could be a show stopper.

PS Just spotted TRANONA's comments. Does this mean that it doesn't matter if it is a well established hull you would still have to get the completed boat measured and tested. Presumably a costly exercise. It does sound like a show stopper!!!

It is not necessarily a matter of "measuring and testing". In a production boat the design specification and construction is approved and the CE mark for an individual boat is given when the records show that it was built to that specification, including all the equipment.

With a home built boat you would have to do all the design calculations and meet the requirements of the intended category then record all the equipment that went into the boat - for example the engine would have to meet the latest standards. It is potentially a show stopper - hence the exemption if it is for your own use.

Remember CE is trade legislation designed to ensure minimum standards of products produced commercially for sale to the public.

The amount of work can be significantly reduced for example if the design already has RCD approval, but you would still need to ensure that it was built to the approved specification and the builder agree to give it the CE mark, or you get a one off inspection.

There is some useful stuff on the RYA site on the subject.

 

[alan_d]

IIRC one of the reasons for the 'finish it yourself' boom of yesteryear was a significant tax advantage (purchase tax or VAT?). Apart from all the other reasons people have mentioned, I suspect that tax advantage has now disappeared.

Yes, that is my understanding.

In the days before VAT there was Purchase Tax which was levied on ready-built things but not kits of parts. I believe that the change to VAT was one of the things that killed the kit-car market.

 

[DownWest]

Yes, that is my understanding.

In the days before VAT there was Purchase Tax which was levied on ready-built things but not kits of parts. I believe that the change to VAT was one of the things that killed the kit-car market.

Both Lotus and Ginetta stopped selling kits on the day that VAT came in. I was waiting for a G15 kit, and when it became apparent that they could not deliver it before that date, they offered me my money back. It was easier to sell completed cars, so the loss of purchase tax advantage made kits a waste of time.
DW