BS1088 PLY (wtf have i just paid for................)

[rogerball0]

As a paid up member of the wood-butchers society i have witnessed first hand a marked decline in the quality of ply in all its variations but this latest order is beyond the pale, all stamped BS1088, all from the far-east, sniffed a rat when i was unloading it and other sheets, thinking this doesn't feel very heavy at all?

Got speaking to the guy in the yard where this latest order came from (has been importing the stuff for the last 30 years) and told me the only ply he'd use is birch as its still largely manufactured in Europe where the spec was more tightly regulated where as the above could of been made as he put it "by a husband and wife in a hut somewhere in rural china making a handful of boards a week." He went on; to make matters worse it all gets collected and packaged up with the factory-made boards so no idea what you're getting quality-wise.

Interestingly i asked him about high end boards (Lloyds approved etc) all he'd say is that unless its made in Europe they'll be no difference in quality to anything else coming out of China, so when i asked why the high price apparently its to pay the insurance of offering a gaurantee.

Incidently heres what exterior-grade wbp looks like after 3 years having been given three coats of polyester resin on both sides and stainless-nailed to my garage doors as the originals had started to rack, really wish i'd put them on the back side now;

Roger.

 

[sailorman]

Ok Sir, we have manufactured your plywood order, what labels would you like us to stamp onto it.

 

[usernamenotvalid]

I built a couple of ply kayaks about five and seven years ago. Everyone said I should buy BS 1088. I ignored the warnings... Got the cheapest I could find, it had one nice face. $12, about 6 pound a sheet 2.89mm @1220x610. The bits I used and the bits I didn't use are still in perfect condition. Found one small void about size of a thumbprint in one of seven sheets. Only found that after marking out a panel and could still shift the piece to avoid the void. Did I just say avoid the void? Yours looks to be rubbish, barely any glue, paper thin faces, I'd take it back. But then what do you replace it with? Looks like its all going the same way. Think mine originated from Malaysia. I did have the luxury of being able to sort through the sheets before purchasing though. An hour very well spent apparently.

 

[Sailfree]

Concerning.

One of my projects was to replace the Holly & teak sole flooring.

I was going to use new real timber veneered boards as preferred the finish to the laminate vaneer (that I could put on top of sanded original jeanneau boards) but is the quality likely to be vastly inferior to what I already have?

Can you recommend a supplier?

 

[snowleopard]

I did some work a couple of years ago with 'exterior' ply from a builder's merchant. Within a couple of months it had delaminated so I was thinking about sourcing some proper BS1088. probably just as well I haven't got round to it yet.

 

[rogerball0]

Ok Sir, we have manufactured your plywood order, what labels would you like us to stamp onto it.

There was rumour going round a few years back of a couple of mills in the far east doing that, based on my latest order i think they're still at it.

I built a couple of ply kayaks about five and seven years ago. Everyone said I should buy BS 1088. I ignored the warnings... Got the cheapest I could find, it had one nice face. $12, about 6 pound a sheet 2.89mm @1220x610. The bits I used and the bits I didn't use are still in perfect condition. Found one small void about size of a thumbprint in one of seven sheets. Only found that after marking out a panel and could still shift the piece to avoid the void. Did I just say avoid the void? Yours looks to be rubbish, barely any glue, paper thin faces, I'd take it back. But then what do you replace it with? Looks like its all going the same way. Think mine originated from Malaysia. I did have the luxury of being able to sort through the sheets before purchasing though. An hour very well spent apparently.

Thats the worry isn't it, what do you replace it with?, the guy mentioned two very big uk superyacht/powerboat builders who only use birch ply as the products quality is high & uniform - wont touch anything else!
FWIW i too have cut and used bogo WBP thats head and shoulders above some marine stuff i've purchased, i really think its hobsons choice as to what you buy as based on what i've just got the kite mark is essentially meaningless.

Concerning.

One of my projects was to replace the Holly & teak sole flooring.

I was going to use new real timber veneered boards as preferred the finish to the laminate vaneer (that I could put on top of sanded original jeanneau boards) but is the quality likely to be vastly inferior to what I already have?

Can you recommend a supplier?

Not really, its an odd world when the old plywood that the above is replacing is far better quality, was thinking of trying to sand up and re-use some of the old stuff to minimise using this rubbish.

cheers

 

[oldharry]

1. Plywood - any plywood will fail dramatically within a few years of coated with polyester. Its about the worst thing you can do to it!. Polyester doesnt stick to ply, so within a short time moisture enters. Once in, it has no way out again. And as any wood fondler knows long term moisture makes the best breeding ground for rot spores. Plywood particularly prone. In the days of plywood boats, polyester resin was known as the 'boat killer'. It was applied to old plywood boats past their sail by date to give them a 'new lease of life', and invariably lead to accelerated rot. The 'West system' had to be applied to new boats with an absolute maximum of 15% moisture content in the wood. New ply if properly stored should have around 5%, and the specific resins used in "West and similar systems did adhere, so the system worked quite well.

2. As you found to your cost BS1088 is meaningless nowadays, and if queried, usually is a catalogue or manufacture stock number - or an inscrutable oriental grin: we got your money thank you velly much! The 'BS' generally meaning Male cow excrement in the trade. Even the BS Kite mark is reproduced with tiny variants so that it doesnt have to be certified. 'Proper' Marine Grade ply can identified fairly easily usually: ALL the veneers are of the same thickness, and same type and quality of timber as the facing veneers (unless there is a specific decorative finishing veneer like Holly or Teak). To qualify as true 'Marine Ply, the voids (i.e the gaps between the veneer sheets inside where there are butt joins must be no more than a specified width, and the glues to specification. As your supplier said, unless the board is of European ,manufacture, certified to be Marine Grade, and just about worth its weight in gold, then its not, and you might just as well buy Homebase 'waterproof' ply - another of those curious trade terms for 'dont get it damp'!

Looking at OPs pictures you can see the core veneers are softwood, and are thicker than the facing veneers, so it cant be true BS1088 certified marne Play. The construction is wrong for starters.

My qualifications? 30+ years of trying to hold ancient plywood boats together!

 

[Wandering Star]

Concerning.

One of my projects was to replace the Holly & teak sole flooring.

I was going to use new real timber veneered boards as preferred the finish to the laminate vaneer (that I could put on top of sanded original jeanneau boards) but is the quality likely to be vastly inferior to what I already have?

Can you recommend a supplier?

There's a place out in the sticks, Romsey way, that carries all sorts of plywood products. It came recommended to me and I bought a dozen sheets of teak/holly striped 16mm (or was it 18mm?) to use for replacement sole board. Excellent quality at low low prices. I understood the stock was generally excess stock which is regularly over ordered by Sunseeker - but whatever the source, it was good quality and very cheap (relatively).

Wish I could remember the name of the place, it was stored in agricultural sheds on a farm. Well worth doing some research to see if anyone knows the place.

 

[prv]

Wish I could remember the name of the place, it was stored in agricultural sheds on a farm. Well worth doing some research to see if anyone knows the place.

I know the one you mean - I still have a couple of bits remaining from the three or four boards I bought a few years ago.

I got the impression though that it was a one-off disposal by Sunseeker or whoever, and I assumed the stock on the farm was exhausted by now.

Pete

 

[rogerball0]

Looking at OPs pictures you can see the core veneers are softwood, and are thicker than the facing veneers, so it cant be true BS1088 certified marne Play. The construction is wrong for starters.

Yep the 0.5mm veneers either side of the central core are very unusual, especially when compared with the last batch from a different supplier, although an EN 636-3 stamp is visible in the corner of the sheet so who knows maybe this is the new standard.

 

[rhumlady]

I very much doubt that you will find ply with equal thickness inner laminates these days. Even Robbins Elite doesn't come that way. BS1088 has also been superceded by an En number these days although I believe the US & Canada still use it. I have recently stripped out a bedroom that I put together in the eighties with B&Q Wbp ply. That is better than any of the carp I have bought in the last 5 years.

 

[rogerball0]

Good to know i'm not the only one Derek, was eyeing up the old stuff tonight to see whats salvagable, theres a few bits i can re use although not critical as its all for my van but i'm pissed off at how far the standards have fallen and more the point that you dont really know what you're getting for the money or spec.

I understand the EN spec is superseding the BS but i'm slowly realising its all fairly meaningless, in future will go and handpick everything, bit of a bind though.

 

[usernamenotvalid]

+1 for the do not use polyester with ply. Yes it is cheaper than epoxy. No it's not a good idea. As for the garage doors. Did you use any uv inhibitor? 'Cos without any, two years life if you're lucky Then it WILL break down. Even in your English climate.

 

[rogerball0]

+1 for the do not use polyester with ply. Yes it is cheaper than epoxy. No it's not a good idea. As for the garage doors. Did you use any uv inhibitor? 'Cos without any, two years life if you're lucky Then it WILL break down. Even in your English climate.

Yeah i went over the top of the side facing out with a coat of varnish but it didn't seem to stop the ply breaking down.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

If something is marked BS1088 and it does not comply with the standard (as the OP's photos clearly show), then it should be reported to the local Trading Standards people. That's the only way of improving the situation.

 

[BERT T]

If something is marked BS1088 and it does not comply with the standard (as the OP's photos clearly show), then it should be reported to the local Trading Standards people. That's the only way of improving the situation.

Totally agree, it's the only way to stop the timber importers bringing in the the cheap and inferior rubbish that we end up having to buy because there is nothing else available.

 

[KellysEye]

The previous owner of our boat was a shipwright and fitted teak decks under which was plywood. The only plywood he would use is a Dutch Marine ply that is guaranteed for, from memory, 50 years.

 

[Greenheart]

It's a sad and desperate business if stamps and marks aren't respected or regarded by marine ply suppliers - though it's scarcely their fault if the flaw is at source, or if even approved ply is no longer up to traditional standards

Assuming we seal whatever we can get our hands on with a good saturating coat of epoxy, and several further coats on top, what's the best preventative for attack by UV? I'm guessing a couple of good coats of ordinary white marine paint will look after the epoxy, much better than varnish which was mentioned above.

Pity, though...my new woodwork was contrasting handsomely with the white GRP in the cockpit.

 

[AntarcticPilot]

It's a sad and desperate business if stamps and marks aren't respected or regarded by marine ply suppliers - though it's scarcely their fault if the flaw is at source, or if even approved ply is no longer up to traditional standards

Assuming we seal whatever we can get our hands on with a good saturating coat of epoxy, and several further coats on top, what's the best preventative for attack by UV? I'm guessing a couple of good coats of ordinary white marine paint will look after the epoxy, much better than varnish which was mentioned above.

Pity, though...my new woodwork was contrasting handsomely with the white GRP in the cockpit.

If you buy Plywood marked BS1088 and it isn't up to scratch, then that is misrepresentation and Trading Standards OUGHT to be down on them like a ton of bricks. Under those circumstances, the vendor and probably also the importer would be liable for significant fines. I appreciate that this is a problem with something like plywood, where you probably won't find the flaws until you've started using it, but if the problem is as widespread as threads like this suggest, then the only way of improving things is to report ANY dodgy BS1088 ply to Trading Standards. If something is marked as adhering to a BS (or ISO or DIN or whatever) and it doesn't, it is a serious issue for Trading Standards. It doesn't matter if the vendor, importer or supplier tries to hide behind saying it is just a stock number, or that it isn't marked in exactly the right way for the standard - it is clearly an attempt to imply that the material is to BS1088, and if it isn't, that is misrepresentation.

I would note that BS1088 is not concerned with the aesthetics of the material. I bought some BS1088 plywood from our local (reputable) timber merchant, and I have no reason to suppose it isn't up to the standard - I've not found any flaws in using it. But the facing plys are simply a white veneer, with no decorative qualities whatsoever. It's fine for what I'm using it for, but you wouldn't want to use it in a location that wasn't going to be painted or otherwise invisible.

 

[Greenheart]

The ply I bought for my Osprey's floor was just sold as "Far Eastern"...there are some markings which I photographed...I'll try to put them on Photobucket later so I can show them here. I was hoping for a big obvious reassuring BS 1088 stamp, but mine was the second half sold from a whole sheet of 9mm, so I guess the first half will have carried the mark.